To ask what I’ve been paying for?

[Lollipop30]

So basically my daughter has just been given the same certificate for swimming for the third time, am I wasting my money completely?!

She started at private lessons and got her Stage 2 and 5m before they lost use of the pool and we had to find lessons elsewhere.

She then went to council lessons that are dictated by age and was put in their Stage2 until she reached an age that they’d move her up. She had yet again got Stage2 and by then 25m before we moved and had to change lessons yet again.

When we put her in swimming lessons at the new place they wanted to put her in Stage 2 again. Tbh I did insist on then having another assessment and said she’d achieved that level twice now and I couldn’t see the point of her repeating it yet again.

Been to lessons today, they congratulated DD on achieving Stage2 AGAIN!!! So we now have 3 of the bloody badges. I don’t want it spoiled for her as she really is in her element in the water. But her confidence is taking a hit every time.
Also what the hell have I been paying for for the past year!!!!!
WWYD?

I've just starting reading the thread, if she can't put her head in the water there's no way she should pass 2.

My current area does week intensive courses - 30 minutes every day with a different teacher to normal got one who hated the water in their face sorted. Maybe see if somewhere in area does similar?

Or possible private one to one lessons to get past the things she struggles with? I used to know a qulified swim teacher - a mum friend - she did lessons at a really reasonable rate though we moved away before my children were old enough. She used to be found by word of mouth.

Well mine have had several years without lessons and we couldn’t take them regularly swimming. The leisure centre lessons weren't doing anything for them, school one were very basic and had little lasting affect but we moved here and started again.

I think the teaching here is very good and them being bit older means they are going through levels at a faster rate. They can all swim better than us – so I do feel the lessons are worth the money.

So if you did stop – and re-start later I don’t think it would be the end of the world TBH.

@arethereanyleftatall - Wow 2 & 7 is a big difference. Her strokes are actually much better as is her stamina.

@shutitandtidyupgitface - DD is not an idiot she can tell she’s been given the same thing yet again. If it was strokes/distance/skill badge then maybe your theory would work.

@arethereanyledtatall - she can put her face in the water, she would have it constantly in if there wasn’t the need to breath! Her problem has been getting her to not just hold her breath and do the whole thing with it in.

I would say as a parent who moved her DS swimming lessons for various reasons.The assessments themselves vary from school to school. My DS made most progress in a school that focused on strokes than badges.
At stage 5 he moved simply because he needed a bigger pool. He did his stage 5 in about 2 weeks because the assessment standard was lower.
I would not move at this point but do extra lessons or take her yourself and practise what she needs to learn.

If her strokes are much better, I'd definitely stay in the swim school that are actually improving her stroke rather than throwing badges at her every term to keep the parents happy.
I have 2 dds who are 7&8 and now both in club easily swimming 1km per training session. I put them in the swim school which keeps children in stage 2 until their strokes are perfect, frontcrawl only breathing to the side -crucial. It took one of them 2 years to pass stage 2, and once they'd done so, flew through the rest of the stages.
Long term it doesn't do the child any good to get given a badge and pushed to do more distance without the strokes being correct.

Swimming lessons are a huge con to part parents with their money
Teach them yourself on holiday or if it's that important to ou pay for an individual lesson, it will be much cheaper.
Mine all learned on holiday or with us at local pool, cost us nothing.

Get her to practise blowing bubbles in the bath. From babies I teach never to hold your breath under water, it affects body position and there isn't the time on breathing to breathe out and in so that has a knock on effect on your stroke. Bubbles always when your head is under water.

OK OP, this is what is involved:
Stage 2: By completing this Award, with or without floatation equipment or support, you will be able to:

Jump in from poolside safely to a minimum depth of 1.0 metre.
Blow bubbles a minimum of three times rhythmically, with nose and mouth submerged.
Move from a flat floating position on the back and return to standing without support.
Move from a flat floating position on the front and return to standing without support.
Push from a wall and glide on the back – arms can be by the side or above the head.
Push from a wall and glide on the front with arms extended.
Travel using a recognised leg action with feet off the pool floor on the back for 5 metres.
Travel using a recognised leg action with feet off the pool floor on the front for 5 metres.
Perform a tuck to rotate from a flat floating position on the front, to a back floating position, then return to standing.
Perform a tuck to rotate from a flat floating position on the back, to a front floating position, then return to standing.
Perform a log roll from the back to the front.
Perform a log roll from the front to the back.
Exit the water without support.

She needs to complete all of these to finish stage 2. So she can manage the face-underwater part, if she's passed it 3 times.

Stage 3: By completing this Award, without floatation equipment or support, you will be able to:

Jump in from poolside and submerge to a minimum depth of 1.0 metre.
Sink, push away from wall and maintain a streamlined position.
Push and glide on the front with arms extended and log roll onto the back.
Push and glide on the back with arms extended and log roll onto the front.
Travel 5 metres on the front, perform a tuck to rotate onto the back and return on the back.
Fully submerge to pick up an object.
Answer correctly three questions on the Water Safety Code.
Push and glide and travel 10 metres on the back.
Push and glide and travel 10 metres on the front.
Perform a tuck float and hold for three seconds.
Exit the water without using steps.

You can see there's quite a big step from 2 if she has used floats to achieve this level. Stage 3 is totally without floats. This is from here. You can also check this.

Maybe stay with the current swim school for at least a term and see if there's any measurable progress? I would ask where she needs to improve in order to move on. How old is she? How long are the lessons, and how often? My ds seems to make reasonable progress on one half-hour lesson per week, although I also make him do the intensive lessons in the holidays. He does seem to come on more rapidly during these, four half-hourly lessons on consecutive days.

Thank you this has actually made me feel much better. I think we’ll just take her more so it doesn’t knock her confidence and see how it goes.
She is improving and her strokes are definitely getting better. I don’t get the whole face in the water comment as it’s blatantly the other way round but perhaps they meant breathing to the side instead of lifting head up?
With regards to the badges I will speak to them as even if she doesn’t get the same as the other kids, giving her the one below again is actually knocking her confidence more than receiving none.

Noodles - quite often a swim school will add their own additional criteria to that. They shouldn't because the whole point is that any stage 1 anywhere is the country is the same standard. But hey-ho they don't.
In the good swim school that I teach in, stage 2 needs to achieve much more simply because logistically for the pool timetable stage 3 is 25m lengths. Does ruin the point of the national stages but sounds like what's possibly happening at op dds school.

DS (9) and I are both very confident swimmers and always have been, but dd (now6) also got stuck with passing Stage 3, becausebsge was not happy about putting her face in the water or diving down. Stuck to the extent that her teacher “officially” offered her an intensive course over half term, and “unofficially” suggusted we’d gone as far as we could with dd putting her face in the water.

Stopping swimming didn’t sit well with me (ex club swimmer) or DH (can’t swim), and we were going away for some half term, so we couldn’t do the intensive course. What we did do though, the days we were at home,I took the dc swimming everyday, and DS and I gradually persuaded dd to put her face in the water. After 5 days she was picking up sharks from the bottom of the pool. This was just a few days after her 5th birthday. She passed her Stage 3 a few weeks later and is now on the verge of passing Stage 4. She is much happier about swimming too.

It’s the log roll ones she hasn’t ticked off. I’m not sure if she can do it now but last time I took her myself she couldn’t so I doubt it.
I’m not wanting them to move her onto something she’s not capable of but the feedback just has been totally off so not helpful.

Op, if your dd lifts her head up, her legs will sink, and the bow wave the head has created to breathe to the side in is eliminated. It's crucial for fast swimming to be able to breathe to the side. She is possibly breathing to the front because she hasn't blown out under the water, so needs more time. I wouldn't pass to stage 3 until they breathe to side without lifting head.

@BikeRunSki

I totally understand what you mean but my problem is the feedback is way out so we’re left not knowing what exactly she needs to work on.

• can happily dive to the bottom of the deep end (3m) to collect items & has passed 25m Front crawl and backstroke. (I’ve witnessed these)

• can’t put face in the water. Can just about swim 5m

It’s like they’re talking about a different child, and certainly not the one I’ve seen in there.

Hello Swim instructor here.

Nope, you should not have to repeat a stage of it has already been achieved. Provided all the swim schools have used the ASA national plan for teaching stages then they should be working in unison.

The only time I could see a possibility of this happening is 1) if a child had a long break and was out of practice or had lost confidence or 2) The swimming facilities are restricted- ie- no teaching pool therefore children needing to be strong in deeper water.

Noodle- your quotes of the stages are correct, however most swim schools add in a distance award which needs to be completed unaided.

Where I work to pass stage 2 you also need to be able to swim unaided 5mts on the front and the back. Stage 3 asks for 5mts Frontcrawl and 5mts Backstroke so a better technique required.

OP 25mts normally sits at Stage 5. Is your DD able to swim more than 1 stroke? I’m trying to gage her ability as to where I would place her on the scheme.

@arethereanyleftatall - thank you that’s the sort of feedback I was looking for - something she can actually work on

I think many providers have different levels - we were at a private pool and during the summer holidays they did lots of crash courses and holiday club type events that children from lots of other swimming pools attended. They were supposed to go in the level dictated by the national swimming awards all the pools used - can't remember what they are called ASA??

But the children at the same stage as my Grandson from the council pool were miles behind him in what they could do - it seemed they focused on the fancy bits e.g. somersaults whereas the private gyms focused on distance and stamina and they had to do the strokes better to move up.

So my Grandson was two stages below his friend although he could swim 1/2 mile and dive and she could not swim 25m. Our instructor said he would have placed her 3- 4 stages lower than her pool had her working at.

@AlmostChristmas

She can swim front crawl and backstroke although lifts her head in crawl as opposed to the side. Butterfly she’s useless at and breast stroke she has very good arms and legs but they tend to go to pot when put together.

@AlmostChristmas
In terms of pool I have wondered if her height is holding her back? All the other children can touch the bottom but DD can’t and spends much of the lesson treading water.

Hi OP so based on that info she would be a Stage 4 but close to a Stage 5 where I work. Is she deep water confident?

Have you ever watched the lessons? My DD was a confident swimmer but we moved house and at the new pool they insisted that you could only swim if you did a symmetrical breaststroke. According to them being able to get yourself from one end of the pool to the other under your own steam, without floatation devices and in control of your movements and your breathing was not swimming. Who knew?

They put her in the paddling pool, made her wear armbands and told her she was a non-swimmer!!!!
We found a different teacher who restored her confidence and most importantly her love of being in the water and taught her to swim beautifully (though I have no idea if she has a symmetrical breast stroke - I imagine that is still a challenge!)
By the time she started swimming lessons at school she had good (and quite stylish) back and front crawl, was starting to learn butterfly and had swum 1km (she set herself a challenge and that was what she picked)
School swimming was with the symmetrical breast stroke guys. They still considered her a virtual non-swimmer. So for the next couple of years she swam like a fish in the lessons we paid for. Whenever she got the chance to play in any water she did and once a week the school took her for "lessons" where she was not allowed in the deep end until she learned to swim. They didn't take her confidence this time because she knew she was good. But they did a lot of things that would have if she'd been less secure in her swimming. They eventually let her try for her 25m badge when she was 11. They didn't want to because they knew she would fail but I insisted she be allowed to "at least try" - she swam up and down that pool for hours and swam 1500m in the end just to show them!
It made her sad that they refused to see what she could do - but she is dyslexic and was growing used to the fact that some teachers can be really rubbish at seeing your ability unless it looks exactly like theirs.
I'd suggest you sit in on a lesson and then decide if you are getting value for money. If she's having fun and learning and gaining skills then who cares about the badges (maybe she does?) but if she's learning to fail then you would be better off spending it elsewhere.

@AlmostChristmas - I would have said so as she collects the things from 3m down?

@OhNoFuckADuck - Pretty much everything you’ve said. And it is knocking her confidence, slowly but surely. I’m concerned they tell her she can’t do something often enough she’ll start to believe it.

If she is able to tread water she must be a fairly strong swimmer!

As far as size goes- yes occasionally I won’t move a child up even though they have technically passed the stage. Sometimes they simply haven’t got the stamina or confidence for the next and are at the risk of being accidentally knocked about by larger children.

However for your DD It’s sounding more like a technique issue. If I were you I would contact the swim school and ask to talk to the swim coordinator, outlining exactly what you have told us. I have quite happily called parents back to offer feedback and advice.