to not understand why a crotch grab would result in PTSD?

[BluePancakes]

Is it just that I've been so conditioned as a female that my body is not my own/it's other people's property that a crotch grab would be humiliating or embarrassing, but I'd move on pretty quickly? Whereas if a bloke had his crotch grabbed, especially by another bloke, it's so unexpected that it could affect their whole mental health?

Is the reason that "crotch gets grabbed" has made the headlines mainly because it's a man making the accusation, whereas there needs to be many more women making an accusation to make it stick? And whilst, I'm sure the media is in hyper-drive because these are famous people, I feel that if an average woman was to be grabbed by an average man, it would just be brushed under the carpet...

Apologies if there's a thread on this already, but I can't get my head around it.

(And though I hope it doesn't need to be said, I'm not dismissing the severity of any act of sexual harassment or assault, I'm just wondering more about how conditioned society is regarding the different treatment of the sexes.)

I think I've had my crotch, arse and boobs grabbed by strangers countless times- at clubs and pubs, in crowds. It happens, you throw a dirty look at the perv or say something and leave it. It happens a lot. I'm in my 20s but don't really go to the same clubs anymore. And before anyone says anything I have always dressed pretty covered up, my bits aren't out and desperate for attention.

I would think anyone claiming PTSD after a one off crotch grab was after compensation or wanted some time off sick. It's a serious mental health condition and they should be ashamed of themselves. However, I would think differently if they had a history of abuse or other mental health issues.

I'm confused how Kevin Spacey is being wiped out of his industry because of sexual harassment allegations, but no action was taken when the same was alleged against Donald Trump.

The sarcastic part of me wants to say that’s because spacey assaulted men, and trump assaulted women. I know that’s not a perfectly fair comparison, but it is rage inducing nonetheless

"The sarcastic part of me wants to say that’s because spacey assaulted men, and trump assaulted women. I know that’s not a perfectly fair comparison, but it is rage inducing nonetheless"

Yep.

I understand what you mean OP.It happened so often when I was younger that it was normalised and young women were encouraged to take it in their stride. But I have heard women from the generation older than mine complaining about young women who make a fuss abotu being raped, and how it just happens - men must have their way and we just cope, I was horrified by her attitude and imagine that young women, with thankfully higher sense of their own right to safety and privacy and ownership of their own bodies, would be horrified at me thinking it's not traumatic enough to trigger PTSD.

That's what I mean. It's infuriating and quite baffling.

@EddieHitler

I think it's sad that anyone would face any kind of negative actions because of an accusation.

I sort of do too. It's still just an allegation. But the disparity is bewildering.

I don’t think it is for anyone else to decide, particularly randoms sat on their arses in their comfy chairs pontificating on mumsnet, as to whether an incident is deemed bad enough to trigger ptsd for someone. Do people actually think before they type or just vomit words?

HandbagKrabby - did you read people’s posts before calling us randoms sat on their arses etc?? Many of us have been through quite traumatic experiences and still said feeling traumatised is highly subjective.

splinterz

it's like Dr Google in this place. Oh, there's a nice set of words, I'll have that

I have never seen this on Mumsnet. Or IRL. Seriously???? MH is so stigmatised and misunderstood, why would anyone fake it?

There was an OP on AIBU a few days ago who had BPD and CPTSD and said she was in process of starting an ivestigation into whther she had some ASD traits or ASD. So many posters pounced on her accusing her of faking ASD. She ended up seemingly quite distressed. Yes, her AIBU was BU in some ways but she did not deserve her illness questioned and ripped to shreds... I do not understand why anyone would pretend to have a disability unless it were for falseley claiming disability pay (which I believe happens rarely).

I used to be a poster on here and left because of bitchy attitudes. I am wishing i never came back but I saw your post Splinterz and could not keep my mouth shut. This forum gets worse and worse.

And for your info OP and splinterz I am in therapy for a condition known as Complex PTSD myself. No car bombs, a naice midle class upbringing, music lessons, ballet, private schools,. holidays abroad. But my naice DF was mentally and verbally abusing me and my DM.

I still struggle to believe I could have PTSD, even the Complex kind from something seeminglyh minor as verbal or emotional abuse but the symptoms are all there.

I often would get told by counsellors who I tried to disclose the abuse to: "But it was only verbal abuse??? he didn't touch you???" My DM was s obrainwashed by what DF was doing she actually would say the same thing "It's only verbal abuse Pearlsandsmiles It is just his way." She would tell me if she left no other man would have her.

He would threaten violence to us and also play mind games. I believe he had Narc tendancies (I am borderline and maybe Narc myself- borderline diagnosed, narc suspected but not yet diagnosed) and I believe this disorder runs in families and is triggered by experiencing or witnessing abuse or other traumas under the age of 4 to 6 years old

And for your info OP ...my naice DF was mentally and verbally abusing me and my DM.
I still struggle to believe I could have PTSD, even the Complex kind from something seeminglyh minor as verbal or emotional abuse but the symptoms are all there.

FWIW I would never consider verbal or emotional abuse as minor.

I'm now investigating whether there is a legal/technical difference between 'abuse' and 'assault', so far from being a GF who was just trying to stir or minimise anything, I'm trying to learn, and am using 'randoms sat on their arses' as a sounding board so I can get my thoughts clear, so I'm not making wrong assumptions.

I think most of us born in the 80's and suffered the clubbing and pub hell of the 90's/early 00's can say that it swings both (all) ways. For every bloke grabbing a boob there was a girl grabbing an arse or a crotch at the bar.

To me generally, if someone did it to me now, it'd be a good excuse to take out some pent up anger on their family jewels with a swift kick.

Getting groped in a club or a bar? No I wouldn't exactly class it as PTSD inducing - unless it was some horrific built up experience where they then cornered the victim and molested them.

Maybe it's just me but although they're both sinister, one would be extremely more so.

Society saying it doesn't like something isn't going to make it go away entirely. I think it's better to know how to instantly deal with it in that moment as well as try and irradicate it.

Humans will always be pretty grim. Best to not pretend otherwise really.

sure, BluePancakes, I wasn't having a go at you. I did not actually read your post as goady. I was goaded a bit by splinterz though. Because to imply someone is glibly faking a mental disorder is quite disabilist in my view. I am not saying it could never happen but I really do not think it is a "thing" and usually in the rare cases where people fake it, they either want money or they want attention. If the latter, it may be they DO have PTSD as Munchausens Syndrome is commonly linked with abuse in early childhood or cluster b PDs eg histrionic or borderline. . So if a poster was faking for sympathy, I would direct them to the MH threads on MN instead and suggest they talk to thei GP or MH team. I would not rip someone so vulnerable to shreds on a public forum.

PTSD is a response to trauma. Trauma is a subjective experience and it is not fully understood why two people go through the same "traumatic event" one develops PTSD and the other doesn't. We all react differently. I was once somewhere on holiday and there was an earthquake. It was quite strong but short and no real damage. I was terrified and it took me days to calm down. My husband barely batted an eye.
I supported an employee with PTSD for many years in my former job and hers was triggered by sexual abuse as a child.
The fact was that she felt powerless and terrified and her brain didn't know what to do with the trauma and couldn't file the memories properly. She got on with her life barely functioning, afraid to be alone and eventually moved to a different country and then it all started to come to the surface and PTSD was diagnosed.
It's not right to say that PTSD couldn't happen as a result of a crotch grab. I can think of situations where if this happened to me I would be upset but I would get over it but I can also imagine that it's completely different if you feel really afraid of the person who has done it and what else they might do and that you cannot stop them from doing anything they like. Even if they then stop/get interrupted/you leave/you punch them and they don't get chance to do anything else to you.
You may feel this person shouldn't have PTSD from the scenario in question but quite honestly PTSD comes from how the incident makes the person feel rather than what actually happens to them.
It is not just reserved for those who witness a bomb going off. PTSD is becoming more well known and recognised now which is why you hear the term more. But it isn't a new phenomenon.

I recall a thread aeons ago on MN where a woman (not sure she was even the OP) mentioned she had been groped and fondled badly as a teenager by a stranger in a public area and she froze and felt too shy to make it stop. She said she told her parents a year later after struggling with her emotional and mental health and her DF laughed and screamed at her that "if she called the police she was being stupid and she neded to grow up and stop feeling sorry for herself. " The poster actually sais she had a few years down the line sought sexual abuse counselling from a charity for sex assault survivors, saying she was being told by her psych that she had PTSD symptoms. . I remember the roasting she got on here... So maybe she was being a bit silly about it... I did read some of her other posts though and it turns out she had "stately homes thread" type of DF. I felt a bit more sorry for her after that, I think.

maybe the issue is the reaction from others who have been told about sexual assault though or maybe it was because she was only 14 at the time?
Maybe it is th ereactions of other people to

Why was she being a bit silly about it Pearls ?

SpongeBobJudgeyPants I didnot think she was being silly when I first read the post. It seemed her fathers reaction really upset her and maybe that was worse than the actual groping- but people on MN were tearing her to bits saying she should not consider it serious abuse needing long term MH help. I think they were being harsh but I do not know whether my perceptions of this kind of thing are accurate because I had similar things grwoing up- having ment or oys touch my privates or force me to take my pants off for them to look at me and my own DF told me to shut up when I tried to tell. So I have no idea what kind of sexual assault counts as "damaging."

I think all sexual assaults are damaging .Sorry that happened to you. I was quoting from your post btw so maybe she was being a bit silly about it. I don't think this helps, we should believe people, and not minimise. The question should not be 'why has this man got ptsd, but why have we normalised it so much that people who have been sexually assaulted do not have (apparent) symptoms of trauma after it'

I have PTSD (diagonsed) and I would rather have cancer.
At least then people would be more understanding, empathetic and less dismissive.
It is truly horrific. I tried to hang myself when I had a severe episode and I'm now housebound. I fantasise about having a terminal illness because I'd have an end in sight.
When I was hospitalised with it (against my wishes) a Doctor said to me 'hospitals are for people who are actually poorly' so even in the NHS it's not taken seriously. Not IME anyway.

Had my arse and crotch grabbed numerous times when in clubs and pubs when I was younger. It was even worse when I had various student jobs working in such establishments. Usual perpetrators being the stereotypical hen dos and birthday groups of women. Most of the time it was just very irritating as opposed to being humiliating or mentally damaging. I guess being a big rugby playing bloke there was not the physical threat to worry about. The only time I felt actual anger was when some women grabbed my crotch so hard she actually squashed one of my testicals which made me yelp with pain and forced reflex action from me shoving her away quite hard. She lost her shit with me and starting screaming insults at me and making a scene claiming I had hit her which piqued the interest of a few 'white knight' men who started to have a pop at me as well. Managed to wriggle out of the situation and scarpered from the club before things escalated further. Remember being furious with that women as I headed off home with my night ruined.

I can see where the ops coming from. I'd report it to the police, but I wouldn't be traumatised by it ( have had similar/ worse). I appreciate that's not how the definition of ptsd works and I'd try and be understanding, but would probably have to struggle internally with get over it feelings, like with over sensitive staff at work.

SpongeBob Thanks. I did worry I had overreacted in my own case though my own PTSD was always more to do with mjy family and also bullied at school very badly. I think you are right, I cannot help but think that society has always been very dismissive of any kind of sex abuse or harassment. I was hoping the #MeToo hashtag would help raise awareness but even on MN I have heard people criticise it because it is lumping together harassment with rape etc. i do see their point but I think that rape deoes have some awareness even if there is still a lot of stigma and ignorance whereas low level sexual abuse always seems to get minimised. I remember when Jimmy Savile etc happened and my DF was like "but most of the victims it was just touching, not rape and they weren't little kids, were they?"