Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder how you can define 'theft?'

64 replies

user1491678180 · 01/11/2017 11:28

After seeing a thread on here that I read with interest (and confusion) I am wondering if someone who knows more about the law, can confirm what 'theft' actually is?

The thread was on about whether someone's cat can be stolen. The answer from most people was 'of course it can.' Because it's a possession that belongs to someone, and is registered to them; and many searches on the internet showed this to be true, including one someone posted on page 8 of that thread

@Iris65

www.pets4homes.co.uk/pet-advice/your-pets-and-the-law.html

That makes it quite clear you can indeed steal someone's cat, and it is 'theft.'

Yet someone else said if they just feed the cat, and pet it, and it 'chooses them,' then they are not stealing it. Confused

They also posted something from the 'Theft' act.

sixthformlaw.info/01_modules/mod3a/3_60_propety_offences/01_theft.htm

Which basically states that taking something is not theft if you did not intend to keep the item permanently, and intended to give the item back.

So surely if that is the case, we can all take stuff, from friends, and neighbours, and colleagues, and our employers, and shops and stores, and say that we didn't intend to keep it, so it's not stealing. Confused And if they can't prove otherwise, we won't get charged with theft surely? Hey Mr Jones, yeah I took your lawnmower 3 weeks ago, but it's only in my garage and I was going to bring it back.' 'Hey Mr policeman, I took the dress from H & M, but I only wanted it for a few days, so I have something to wear for the party. I was going to bring it back!'

How can anyone prove I intended to keep the item permanently?

And if they can't, then surely it's not theft? That is what that link to the theft act is inferring.

Enlighten me someone. I am confused by all these grey areas! Confused

OP posts:
MyLearnedFriend · 01/11/2017 14:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Nicknacky · 01/11/2017 14:43

completely'is correct in terms of Scottish law. Bthenarrivle doesn't need to be stolen to complete the offence, it can be abstracted or removed from its original place.

Nicknacky · 01/11/2017 14:45

It looks like I was drunk writing that. I'm not! Bloody keyboard and trying to type quickly

MyLearnedFriend · 01/11/2017 14:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Nicknacky · 01/11/2017 14:48

You are correct it's not theft but it would be theft by housebreaking, not HBWI.

And that bizarre word is no language at all, certainly not Scottish. It's my keyboard losing its mind!

CompletelyUnknown · 01/11/2017 14:51

@MyLearnedFriend hbwi is the act of breaking in. The purpose of the breaking into the house is the intent to steal. The moving of the goods is the theft. Therefore the crime has been completed and there is sufficiency for the charge of theft by housebreaking. A quick google does not clarify this. I am correct on this.

CompletelyUnknown · 01/11/2017 14:57

We could get completely get sidetracked on the nuances of the interpretation of all the different variants of theft within someone’s house and all the extra charges. I could spend ages discussing scenarios and figuring them out and have in the past.

What I really want to know is whether OP is stealing someone’s cat??

I have a cat. If I knew someone was considering tempting her away I wouldn’t be happy.

scurryfunge · 01/11/2017 15:00

I don't think the op is thinking of stealing a cat. I think she doesn't understand all the points to prove with a theft and is having difficulty with the permanently depriving bit (despite it being explained ).

TaraCarter · 01/11/2017 15:19

OP, this is how 'intention to permanently deprive' works.

Let's say you go into Superdrug, stick a bottle of make-up remover in your coat pocket and physically leave the premises without paying.

If you are seen, it will be an open-and-shut case. The court will consider:
a) whether you have definitely taken goods that aren't yours, without permission from the owner, and;
b) whether you meant to take it forever.

The courts don't need you to admit that you planned to take it forever; in fact, you may swear blind to the magistrate that you were just borrowing it. The magistrate will just use the life experience and common sense of anyone over 21 to consider your version of events, versus the prosecution's.

S/he will then conclude that you're lying and you had no intent of sneaking the full, sealed bottle back on the shelf next Thursday. Grin

LurkingHusband · 01/11/2017 15:32

and if you are not seen ?

TaraCarter · 01/11/2017 15:38

Lurking If the OP's not seen, the OP won't have to puzzle over why her insistence that she was just borrowing the make-up remover doesn't seem to convince the police officer. The definition of theft will never come up!

nocake · 01/11/2017 16:44

With respect to "stealing a cat" I'd be interested to know how you would prove the cat has been stolen and has not just chosen to live elsewhere. I wonder if it's a crime that's theoretically possible but impossible to prove?

constantlyseekinghappiness · 01/11/2017 17:07

In Scotland, theft of animals only applies to dogs and certain types of cattle / farm animals.

It does not apply to other types of pets - like cats or smaller animals, etc.

I'm not sure the legal position in England, although it may well be similiar.

Simply means in Scotland it's not a 'criminal offence' you can be prosecuted for - but could be dealt with in civil law.

Nishky · 01/11/2017 17:52

What makes you say that TWOC is only applicable in Scotland?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWOC

So you answer the question by posting a link to say that TWOC is used in England and Wales and TADA is used in Scotland

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread