..to shop my SM for fraud?

[JacobeanWilson]

SM is a difficult person. Recently while looking for an argument she mentioned she had a lasting power of attorney against my DF in conjunction with my sibling (who I have nothing to do with due to previous acts of humungous selfish behaviour).

My DF was present. I asked afterwards when we were alone, did you agree to this? It seemed unlikely due to both potential attorneys being fundamentally selfish & not interested in the wider family. No I didn't & haven't signed anything, says DF.

It played on my mind & after looking into it, I learnt I could confidentially apply to find out if something was registered against my DF. In the meantime I see my DF again. The power of attorney is mentioned. DF says, don't worry I've spoken about it with SM & I don't know why SM said that because I've not agreed to a power of attorney & she's now accepted that. DF was 100% clear there was never & would never be a power of attorney as SM had suggested, with that arrangement of attorneys.

Today I got the results of the search of the register. There is a power of attorney against my DF name. SM and my sibling named attorneys, just as SM had previously claimed. My DF is adamant he did not agree to this or sign this (at least not knowingly, DF trusted SM implicitly so possibly signed with coersion / pressure or misled, as he is easy going & she is forceful, but as I say DF trusted her completely but had no intention of agreeing to these power of attorneys).

So basically, this is fraudulent. The donor is supposed to freely donate the power not have it donated by another without their knowledge.

Do I shop her? Do I leave it & risk my DF being bullied into ignoring the abuse of trust & the lies that followed recently when SM agreed to respect DF choice not to have the power of attorney, knowing she'd already done it? And DF being stuck with this situation? It's not what he wants but my SM has threatened before to make his life unpleasant if he doesn't keep her happy (not hearsay, I was there!) What happens if someone is found guilty of this type of fraud? She's either tricked him into signing the paperwork, or forged his signature.

My head says give DF the facts, support DF choice. My heart says shop the cow... but aibu? So confused & worried, this could be the tip of the iceberg (thinking has his will been redrafted without his knowledge now I know this has been done)

Help me get my thoughts straight please!

You need to find out who witnessed it, their details will have been logged. I would consult a solicitor but as others have said, your DF may have had a medical diagnosis that you are unaware of.

It seems to me that essentially your take on this is that the marriage is an abusive one.

However, as with any abusive relationship it is hard to get the abused person free.

Is your father happy with your stepmother? It sounds as though he has been happy to have her looking after his affairs?

What are the consequences for their relationship if you contact social services and/or take legal advice re the validity of the Power of Attorney, and then talk to him about what you've found out.

How long have they been married and do you - essentially - want to split them up? How much responsibility are you prepared to take for your father if he begins to live alone at a relatively old age and wants more help - perhaps of a kind you don't particularly want to give - from you.

I'm not defending what appears to be dodgy behaviour by his wife. I'm simply saying that intervening is not a straightforward matter and needs very careful thought.

I would tread with caution - as you've mentioned that your DF "liked being looked after" - were his tests as he states they were? This is probably the crux here?

There should be paperwork with the outcome of the test...or follow up appointments/referral if any concerns were indeed flagged up...

This is very abusive if true.
See a solicitor before he deteriorates.

What may have happened - your dad likes his affairs being organised by wife, wife gives him something to sign so she can speak to bank etc on his behalf, he happily signs - perhaps not realising wider consequences, or perhaps he does...

I am a private client solicitor and do these all the time. You don’t need to go through a solicitor to make one and the requirement to notify family members when registering no longer exists. You do need a ‘certificate provider’. This is either a relevant professional such as a doctor or solicitor or someone who has known you for two years. They are supposed to check that the person signing the LPA knows what they are doing and is not being forced. To be honest, the safeguards are not robust enough and abuse of LPAs is sadly quite common. It sounds like your dad has mental capacity and so legally he is the only person who can fix this really. He needs to see a solicitor who can explain to him that he does have a registered LPA. They can help him to revoke it, if that’s what he wants to do. Despite what a previous poster said, you probably won’t get a free half hour (this is a bizarre MN myth). If he lacks capacity and you are concerned then you can ask the Office of the Public Guardian to investigate. Good luck!

I’m in the middle of doing LPOAs for my DPs (both have asked me to do this after seeing my DH struggle to sort out my DMiLs affairs after she was diagnosed with dementia!)

I am not informing my DSis as she has mental health issues herself although I am including my brother. This is legal.

When I got LPA for my Mother, the solicitor had me leave the room for about 15/20 mins while they questioned her as to whether she was being coerced, did she trust me etc. My siblings were not informed.

Have you spoken to your sister about it?

I have done the POA forms for my parents and a friend. In each case I completed them online, and printed out for people to sign, then sent them off.
The form asks for other family members details, but we left this blank - as there wasn’t anyone else not already on the form. They wouldn’t have known if I had just not mentioned someone.
The ‘certificate provider’ who signs to say the person is of sound mind and wasn’t forced into it, was a family friend.
It would be easy to complete and sign fraudulently, if you had people who would sign untruthful statements.

I just wanted to add further to Flora's post, that at both firms I have worked at, we have regularly carried out initial consultations, either by phone or in person, without charge. Obviously, this won't include any follow-up work or written advice, and is more a fact-finding exercise than anything. It isn't, however, something that all firms offer - and I realise that my post may suggest that they do, which wasn't my intention!

As I mentioned, I do not work in this area, so don't have the relevant expertise, and I'd certainly bow to Flora in this regard!

I'm not sure that 'fraud' is the right term.

Suspected financial abuse might be more accurate.

As far as I can see the OP dislikes her stepmother and her sibling, so is unhappy that they hold Power of Attorney. However, it's perfectly possible that her father, who may have capacity, has opted to give them PoA. It maybe that as he prefers a quiet life he has simply not been truthful with the OP in order to avoid the argument that would ensue.

My own younger brother has been left out of my mother's POA arrangements. He's a perfectly competent person. But my mother simply has always taken the view that 'he isn't good with money', because the things he spends his income on aren't the sorts of things she regards as sensible.

I suppose the question is whether, despite your dislike of your stepmother and sibling, you think that they are likely to engage in financial abuse?

And what do you think about your father? It's possible that he may have a degree of memory loss. People who are in the early stages of Alzheimers are quite good at masking this, and only those who know them well/live with them on a daily basis are likely to see that things are changing. There's also a sense of shame about having a failing memory. People may deny that they've got Alzheimers out of a wish to hide this. (Or they've genuinely forgotten.)

It's a real shame that the family dynamics aren't better and that you can't have a proper conversation round a table with everybody concerned.

I have POA for a close relative. The preliminaries were done ten years ago when my relative was of sound mind. Four years ago said relative sustained a brain injury so the POA was activated. As part of the activation process, two of our closest relations were contacted and asked if they had any objection to my acting as attorney. They had to sign to say they had no cause to object.

We would certainly have an initial chat on the phone for 5/10 minutes, to find out what the client needs and give a fee quote (although this might be difficult in this case). I actually hate charging but I’m scared of my boss! I think here your dad should see a solicitor ASAP so he can revoke the LPA while he’s still able. And it’s perhaps worth phoning for an initial chat to see if you like the sound of the solicitor at the very least. Even my boss wouldn’t charge for that!

What stands out in your post is how everyone else is difficult except you. I imagine the reality is quite opposite.

You need to meet with all parties involved and have an honest discussion in front of each other. Bring your proof and ask your DF and SM what is going on and what has been agreed to. Nobody can deny or twist the facts when everyone is present.

FloraPostIt, I know what you mean - time recording and billing are easily the worst part of the job. It's our financial half-year on Monday. Having to go through all my files over the weekend to bring them up to date on invoicing before I go in. Absolutely dreading it! At least I act mainly for business clients, I hate it event more when billing individuals, so you have my real sympathy on that one!

OP, I really hope that you can get some straight answers on this soon. For everyone's sake, I hope that you can at least get some closure that your dad has freely appointed the attorneys, and they can see that you're just looking out for his best interests. Or, if it comes to it, that the appropriate action can be taken quickly to prevent them from misusing it (if that's what's happening here). Good luck!

POA Fraud or abuse is unfortunately a growing problem

I would definitely report this.

I'd also suggest your father contact financial companies he has dealings with (bank, pension, investments etc) and find out if the POA has been registered with them. Even if it has, they should still speak to him as he's still the customer. I'm not sure how he could go about getting them to remove the poa from their records but he could ask.

This all does sound a bit odd but if SM was up to something dodgy would she have mentioned it to you at all? Surely she would know by doing so you would try and undo whatever she's up to? I understand the situation with your sibling but would they do something like this against their own dad?

SM is challenging. The day this news was shared there were at least 4 previous attempts to create arguements (her not me!) which I ignored as I was visiting my DF & didn't want it spoilt. The attempts got more abrasive as each previous one was unsuccessful, so it doesn't surprise me she might have pulled this out the bag in desperation to start a row (it didn't).

You've obviously never met anyone like her if you can't imagine the scenario! I've had it for over 20 years, although not this bad for a long time. SM recently retired so I figured she misses the boasting everyone around at work & is trying it on at home.

To the other poster, about where this could lead, I would take my DF in at the drop of a hat. I have told him that since i was about 10 yrs old! Or support him however needed / wanted. He knows that but might be reluctant to ask because of his nature, but I would absolutely embrace him in any / all ways needed going forward.

Bossing not boasting

If you are talking about an LPA, your father must know about it by law. He must sign the form. It must be witnessed. A professional must sign to say the donor is aware of what he's doing and is of sound mind. It would be more than just your SM telling lies here. I think your father doesn't want you to know about it, probably to spare your feelings.

I can see why some of you are saying DF is in on the LPA. The facts would fit that in many ways.

Yet.... I have spoken to DF who doesn't lie etc, a very honest person, and there's no hint of a cover up. I'm in my 40s, I think I'd know(?) I think he'd just say this is done, I think it's the best option because 'xyz', I hope you can understand. I've told DF at the end of the day it's his estate to do with as he pleases. I don't see why he'd lie which would be against his entire ethos when telling the truth, even if something I don't agree with, it has been made clear that although the choice worries me I would respect it.

My gut is he hasn't realised what he's signed, perhaps caught off guard. Maybe true of the witness too, that they haven't realised they're signing not just to say they've seen something signed but all the responsibility that their signature carries on this document. Perhaps SM implied the details on the form were personal, I don't know. There are more than 1 possible set of scenarios.

The difference I have above the written facts on here are the interactions with my DF, which strongly lean me towards him not knowing about this. But I can see there are 2 possible cases: I'm being misled or DF is being misled. Having read up on the process of submitting an LPA I can see it would be reasonably easy to fudge an application if someone set their mind to it.

I don't know any in's and out's but my mam couldn't get POA for my grandmother as by the time we realised how bad she was (she now has a diagnosis of Alzheimer's but my grandad had been hiding she was struggling before his death) she didn't have the mental capacity to agree to POA.

We set up LPAs for both parents this year with no solicitor but it's a lot of paperwork and required multiple signatures. So if she has tricked him into signing then I would agree it's fraud.

Maybe speak to Age Concern? They are quite hot on financial abuse. My own df has signs of early dementia but still has capacity to make his own decisions. Try to speak to your df alone and ask what his wishes are and then try to ensure they are met. Using a solicitor for this is sensible. However, the fallout could be massive and he may be forced to choose between you and her.