AIBU to think that this is racist?

[usainboltsleotard]

Genuinely don't know if I am being over sensitive and want to hear your views. I name changed because this will identify me to anyone who knows me. (don't mind if people I know see this and I will discuss in RL but some of my other threads/responses are a different matter!)

I live in an area where people are very careful about racism/sexism/homophobia etc. It is one of the reasons we chose to live here, multicultural and positive attitude to different ways of life.

Last year my DD came home refusing to take part in the Nativity play at school because it was racist. I asked for a copy if the script and it featured '3 Rastas" instead of 3 wise men (amongst others 'hilarious' adaptations), with comedy dreadlocks and Jamaican accents. They brought coconuts, jerk chicken and a bob Marley CD to baby Jesus. The parts were played by 3 white children and no one else seemed to have any problem with it. I asked the teacher organising and was told it wasn't racist so we just took our daughter out for the days of the play and ignored it.

Yesterday in the town square there was a woman (white middle aged hippy-type clothing) busking singing Bob Marley covers in a cod Jamaican accent. I found it really surprising that when I mentioned it to 2 friends I was with, the saw no problem with it. I asked them they would view it if it was an Indian or Chinese accent and they said that was different but shrugged and laughed when I asked why? (very lighthearted conversation they weren't being unpleasant)

I am genuinely not sure if I am missing something/being over sensitive because I spent my childhood between Jamaica and the Uk and have many Jamaican relatives who are diverse and fantastic people or whether there is an acceptance of racism (certainly not any form of attack or degradation - just a reinforcement of cultural stereotypes and oversimplification of a rich and diverse culture) against some groups and not others.

Sorry if this is ramble - I've been up half then night with a very elderly poorly relative and am probably over thinking things!

Thanks for your insights, its helpful.

We have had some hilarious and ridiculous mix ups with Cultural Appropriation over the years. When DS was 5 he was asked to take part in an Aunties wedding at the Sikh temple and given the great honour of being with the men and wearing a turban especially purchased for him on a pre-wedding trip to India. He was THRILLED and wore his turban at home for weeks but I wouldn't let him wear it to school. DH pointed out the ridiculousness of worrying that white people would think we were racist but I didn't want to take the risk - other similar situations have come up - unbraiding hair on the last day of the school hols to howls and shrieks of protest from DD or telling DS he can't call other children Raggamuffins! It's a minefield.

Thanks for all your opinions, it's very enlightening and I take on board all the comments about the singer. I agree that she was just a terrible busker - it was like Eddie from Ab Fab was 'going hippy at Glasto' hahaha

I think your primary concern should be that those children were asked to portray themselves as observers of a strongly patriarchal and highly, indeed overtly racist religious group.

"in the town square there was a woman (white middle aged hippy-type clothing)"

Did you know her? Is it possible that she was from Jamaica? And ... if you did know her and so knew that her country of origin was other than Jamaica, would you have minded if she had been a black non-Jamaican busking in that way?

I'm sorry if my questions seem naive, but I do (or rather, did) know a white person whose country of origin is Jamaica, and you may not have thought of that possibility when you saw the busker.

I think SilkPJs thread nails a lot of it - the assumption that Jamaicans are all smoking spliff and wearing tie dye - or dutty winding and being 'playas'. Also Silk - have you had the one that you married DH for his enormous penis because that one caused my cousin to throw someone our of her own wedding .

I have also had the same experiences with white Rastas - sitting munching KFC and lecturing me on meditation - oh do fuck off will you you idiot? Read a book, visit Bull Bay and meet the Bobo Ashanti then try calling yourself a Rasta you muppet. And take that stupid ganja leaf necklace off now, and go away. Ahhh that feels better

But then my DF rather spoils my high ground by fulfilling every stereotype of the annoying old white hippy that found himself in a developing and picked up a an eclectic group of friends, far far far too many children, a daft accent and a mild drug problem so who am I to critise haha .

ruthless - having lived with Rastafarians in this country and JA I do have issues with many aspects of their religion, mostly related to the treatment of women. Although I have always been treated extremely well as a friend and 'cousin'. I have only encountered racism from Bobo Ashanti (small sect of Rastas)and in general have found Rastafari to be more flexible in their thinking and diverse in their views than other religions. Personally, I found the fundamentalist areas of most religions - Christian, Islam, Judaism etc to be misogynist but that is a different and probably far more vexatious thread!

AD - I take your point and see how this could happen but I heard her speaking and she was not Jamaican. She murdered a variety of songs but it was 'Buffalo soldier' that raised an eyebrow - due to it's content. I didn't say anything to her - I chatted with friends and took thiewr view but posted as I was really interested to get a variety of opinions.

I guess the line is between imitation and mockery. The nativity play is clearly mockery, but the singer isn't so clear cut. It's actually pretty hard to sing in your "own" voice - it's just not how humans sing naturally. We blend and reflect and merge with each other. That's how come we can sing together.

If you've ever sung big chorals like, say, Shosholoza? Now that, I don't know that anyone could sing that without some kind of accenting - especially when it gets really fast on the stimela siphume South Africa- you need those AHfricAH vowels to get every note. I mean... I'm sure some people COULD do it but it's asking a lot of the ordinary Joe. The thing is music comes out of specific cultures and languages and ways of speaking - that's PART of the music.

manic see i think Lumiere and Babette are different. The characters use French words, they sing, and the use of the accented English is very much part of the song and it wouldn’t sound right at all if not done that way. Warhorse, not so much. We knew they were German because they were wearing German uniforms, the bad accents (tbf I speak German and have German friends, so maybe I’m judging the ‘quality’ of accent unfairly!) were not necessary. The company was impressive and was made of good percentage, though admittedly not 50%, of BAME actors. There were definitely not that many BAME people in 1914 Devon (London maybe, but not Devon) but that doesn’t matter because they are actors, acting the part. So, by the same logic, why not be actors acting the part of Germans without the cod accents. A serious, and excellent production, doing a bit of an ‘Allo, ‘Allo’ accent, felt wrong. However, as a rule, I prefer to take no offence where none is meant. Despite my (now) Chas n Dave accent, developed over years of being brought up and living in East London and the South East, I am, in fact, Irish. As is evidenced when I visit Ireland or am with family and friends and the Irish seeps out! Father Ted seems to be a particular favourite of MN, and I’ve read a lot of threads where people, lovingly, quote the characters. I do not imagine there is a single one of them, when saying/typing ‘Go on, go on, go on, go on.....’ that isn’t doing it with an attempt at the Irish accent of Mrs Doyle. Like Lumiere, it’s integral to the character. If I encounter people irl doing it, I’m not offended (hell, DDs even do it, we love FT, and they’ve never lived in Ireland), but people telling ‘Irish’ jokes, cos you know, us Irish are all thick, yes that’s offensive. I do agree with OP though, it is a minefield, some things are obviously offensive (like dressing up as an hilarious Rastafarian), others are not so clearly defined.

It's unlikely that the characters in the nativity were intended to be actual observant Rastafarians (especially given the non- Ital jerk chicken) but rather stereotyped generic Caribbean people with locks.

Not that that makes it better. But people do misunderstand the difference between Rastafari and people with locks, funky dreads etc,

Camper - exactly - as my cousins DH said when asked for drugs by a colleague - 'it's a fucking hairstyle, is that so hard to grasp'

Out school did Ali Baba and the Bongo Bandits as a Christmas play once. I found it horribly racist in lots of ways.

The worst aspect of it was the 'hilarious' jokes throughout, involving names of the main characters Mustafa Weewee, the three badies called Izzy, Wazee and Duzee, Sultan Pepper and the princess Satsuma. I was cringing.

We are in a rural non ethnically diverse area and this sort of thing really make sure it harder to raise kids who are aware of where the line is on racism and cultural appropriation. They get little enough exposure to non local names without their early encounters with those names being to have a jolly good laugh at them for entertainment purposes. Way to breed ignorance and intolerance.

it's a fucking hairstyle, is that so hard to grasp

Hmmm its a strange one. Remember Fat Club in Little Britain where Margery Dawes makes fun of the Asian woman? Is that racism? I guess it is umm yes it was, of course it was! It served as a very effective comedy for people to laugh at the ignorant racist and not at the person of a different race.

Fucking hell SuperDandy that is properly shocking!

Although....not wanting to derail the thread at all......goes someway to explaining why the most racist people I have met have been from rural communities with little to no minorities. and why they voted leave

Cultural appropriation but not racism.

Judas - yes, okay, I can see the distinction. I haven't actually seen War Horse but I get your point about it the accents not being integral in that case.

Super Dandy Pantomime Scripts are an absolute minefield - so much racism, sexism, disablism etc in them that needs weeding out. Scripts I've used over the last couple years have needed editing to remove such gems as:

• the characters who went into the woods to buy a Chinese takeaway took so long because they went the 'wong way'.
• Prince Charming want to marry for love so the queen says, 'he must be mentally defective.'
• The Fairy Godmother tells Cinderella the spell will break at midnight but that's alright because 'respectable young women don't stay out late at night by themselves.' *Terrible character names in versions of Aladdin like 'Wan Long Poo', 'Ah So' and even the traditional 'Wishy Washy'.

It all seems like harmless fun in a traditional sense but I do think it's bad for children to be given these stereotypes and assumptions to perform - there's enough subliminal messaging out there for them already.

This is a good article about the problem with panto:
www.thestage.co.uk/news/2017/irene-ng-condemns-extremely-racist-panto-genre/

I don't think children should be sheltered from racism in theatre. Last year I put on To Kill A Mockingbird with 13 year olds (with a few adaptations but keeping several uses of n**r ) and I think that was fine. But that's because the racism is supposed to seem negative and shocking to a modern audience. Pantomimes are different - we're being encouraged to laugh at racist stereotypes.

Hmmm its a strange one. Remember Fat Club in Little Britain where Margery Dawes makes fun of the Asian woman? Is that racism? I guess it is umm yes it was, of course it was! It served as a very effective comedy for people to laugh at the ignorant racist and not at the person of a different race.

I've used that clip with older children as an example of how it is possible to use racist/sexist/homophobic stereotypes or comments in comedy appropriately. The person who ends up looking stupid, wrong and the source of the laughter is the fat club owner, not the Asian woman. So it works and makes a point. The same clip makes use of derogatory comments to overweight and gay characters but, again, it's not those characters who end up ridiculed.

Super - I think I saw that as a panto starting ken dodd in the early 80s!!!

Very interesting manic. Thanks for the link - will help me argue the toss next time a panto is on the agenda.

It plays in schools all over the place every year. What surprised and disappointed me so much was that no one seemed to much notice or care. How it got past all the staff I don't know.

Please don't take it as an opportunity to rural resident bash though... we aren't all racist of course. I'm saying it's important not to let racist crap get sanctioned or ignored in non diverse areas because the kids' exposure is limited by where they live already.

UsainBolt
Were you in Maidstone yesterday? I saw a white woman butchering "Buffalo Soldier" yesterday afternoon

I’m a real dick when it comes to pantomime and shows with that whole racism and disabilist stuff in it. I walked out and complained at butlins a couple of years ago because a joke in a show had a line about kicking a dwarf. I really don’t like humour that makes fun of vulnerable people or different cultures or races.

I agree op

When ds was in I think year 2 he was learning some old songs and would sing them in an exaggerated odd cockney accent

Parents were invited to an assembly the whole year sang oops whata banana and knees up muva brown and something else I can't remember with a little dance routines and a few children who had suddenly developed a strange accent telling us what fun they were had living in the east end

It was awful later I was saying to some parents that I cringed the whole way through it one agreed others thought it hilarious and delightful

It wasn't delightful ds goes to a prep school in south London the children are from mainly very mc privileged backgrounds it was laughing at not laughing with

Enthusiasm - if they had put on a posh accent to sing Burlington Bertie from Bow would it offend you? Or a Liverpool accent to sing a Cilla Black song. Impersonation is not racist.

The kids at our old prep had sarf London accents. Not many of the parents did!

the majority wouldn't have to put on an accent to sing Burlington Bertie with a Liverpool accent if the whole assembly was done in the same tone yes I would think it was mocking laughing at not laughing with