To think language learning in schools is bullshit

[snowballkitty]

I'm just really annoyed. I 'learned' French and Latin in school, and after 6 years of learning, when I went to France; still didn't feel like I could speak French. I couldn't make a simple conversation confidently

I took up courses and learned some Spanish on the plane to the canaries.

Suddenly all of the staff were so impressed they called me the 'Spanish girl' for two weeks. Yeah they may have been taking the piss but I still had learned more in four hours in terms of how to actually communicate than a lot from GCSE, from what other English guests were saying. This is probably down to me making an effort to use my new Spanish (which I had never learned before).

My problem is this, and it's probably really daft. But I always thought that the most important component of language was speech? Yet it's 100% the least important in the curriculum.

To give you a broad example: if you go to China, and ask for directions they likely won't be able to understand you verbally. But if you write it down, they have learned written English since 7th grade, so all of a sudden they understand!

The two 'hardest' language skills are writing and speaking. Whilst I agree writing may not be a priority for most learners, speaking is as I can see it, no 1.

So how is it people can get an A/A* in a language and not actually speak it.

I totally agree with you!

Other countries start learning languages much, much younger. Initially it is more language based...erm similar to how we learn our own language. Also, the entire lesson is often taught in the language rather than (in my opinion) learning to translate which is more what we do here. Far more could be done at primary level but it's a struggle get secondary school teachers so I don't hold out much hope there!

That said, despite what that prat Junker says, English is the language of business and so is more 'necessary'. I appreciate that may not always be the case. But I suspect that's one of the reasons we are so inadequate next to rest of Europe. Oh, and colonialism!

I don't agree with you OP. The teachers don't demand that pupils speak perfectly. But what we do want is for them to increase their vocabulary and take more risks, even if it means they'll make mistakes. What the exam boards want, however, is another story.
And the reason why, after 5 years, many students still can't achieve fluency is because they don't put enough hours in. You can't just expect to learn everything and become fluent doing three hours a week in school. Learning a language is not the same as learning history or maths. You need to commit to it daily. Read, listen to content in a foreign language and just expose yourself to it as much as you can. I speak 7 different languages. Does it mean I lived in 7 different countries? No. I was just committed enough and went out of my way to learn them.
What is done in school is not enough - and that applies to any subject. You need to do some research and some learning on your own, which I know, from experience, many of my pupils are too lazy to do.

I did very traditional grammar learning of English, Spanish and French in my Swedish school back. No exposure to French or Spanish speakers, no internet in those days, and no French or Spanish music or television that I ever had access to. A lot of the learning was reciting irregular verbs. It was very much about understanding how it worked and constructing our own sentences rather than learning phrases off by heart.

When I finally did go to France and Spain (France for the first time at 17, Spain at 22), I found I had laid a very firm foundation which enabled me to pick up speaking quite quickly. Many of my contemporaries went off to become au-pairs and found the same thing.

We did not start learning languages particularly young: first English lessons at 10/11, French or German at 13, either French, German or Spanish at 16. And that third MFL at 16 was one of about a dozen subjects, so it wasn't as if we got to spend all day on it: I think we had 2 or 3 sessions a week. But expectations were high and on the whole we lived up to them. We had that commitment Beau speaks of.

It was nothing to do with starting young or being constantly exposed to the language via media- we didn't have any of that. But it was about thinking of other languages as entry points to other cultures- and finding other cultures exciting.

People learn languages differently and some are better than others.

A pp said they learnt Spanish from telly well enough to sell stuff - that's pretty impressive.

BIL was speaking Chinese after four months there. No previous experience of the language.

I've been learning a language for 8 years and still have loads of problems!

I'm good at at other stuff though.

I don't think it is great but where is it any better in a like-for-like comparison? I taught in a university in Asia where students were translating Beowulf but couldn't actually speak English beyond 'what is your name'. Their knowledge of grammar was better than mine but they had virtually no experience of spoken English.

Agree Sukitia. I have also taught Asian students who had incredibly high scores on the written test paper but could not speak one basic sentence in English.

I went to a very ordinary comprehensive in the late 90s and got an A in GCSE German. I did a school trip to Germany and didn't actually have to speak a word of German the whole time we were there (even buying the compulsory stamp and postcard, we just handed them over and then handed over money).

I agree that I learned more German grammar than English grammar. I remember in year 9 the teacher still saying "a doing word" rather than calling it a verb, because half the class wouldn't know what a verb is. German seemed to have all these complicated grammar rules, because we had to learn them. English also has plenty of weird grammar rules but we weren't taught them, things like word order in a sentence you just pick up from conversation and reading (saying "threw he the ball red" just sounds wrong even if you don't know the official rules for example).

Yes, its bad here.

Apparently in France they teach you to speak the language first, before writing.

Which makes sense - thats how we learnt languages as children.

Everything here is so academic and uttelry pointless in terms of languages - not everyone is going up to Oxford to study Classics.

I don't know what language learning is like now but back in the 1950s it was beyond dire in my school. Still, I learned such useful phrases as 'la plume de ma tante' and 'ouvre la fenetre' - so useful on holidays in France

I have been learning Italian at an evening class for 2 hours a week, I have just enrolled for the 4th year but feel ready to give up. Our teacher is very good but we just don't talk enough and it's frustrating. Following a visit to Italy this summer DH remarked that rather than lots of grammar, I would be better attending a conversation class if I could find one. No point learning advanced grammar if I can't hold a conversation using present/past/future tenses. Immersion is key and considering living there for a few weeks next year.

I've found the "fun" after-school classes for the DCs to be far, far more effective than anything they've done in school hours.

Engagement and motivation to learn is vital.