Sign language in schools?

[CorSie]

Why isn't sign language taught in schools as standard, rather than Spanish, French, German etc?

It's something I've always wondered but never really put too much thought into it until just recently.

When I was in school our options were French and Spanish and all we were taught was how to order food, ask where toilets were, booking hotels etc which, now, I don't really see as important. Surely teaching children sign language from an early age is more beneficial?

Because it isn't very useful? Unless you work in the healthcare/care sector or in customer service employers wouldn't really care if you spoke sign language. A language like French or mandarin for example could be useful in many different sectors and would be more in demand in highly paid work.

Using that reasoning, you would be better off learning Welsh, Polish, Punjabi or Urdu - all of which are spoken by more people in the UK than use BSL.*

Most people in wales can speak Welsh and as far as the other languages, they would all be used by people who have emigrated here and so would likely know a bit of English or be trying to learn it.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be good to learn them but I disagree it would be more necessary. Deaf people can't use another language, they don't have that luxury

In Scotland all schools have a 1+2 language policy. English is one and then another MFL is introduced when they start school (p1) and a second around p5/6.
At my daughter's school the first language is French and the 2nd is BSL. Completely support it. There are a number of deaf children in her state primary who sign. I think as skills for life and go it's a pretty great one to have.

My sons primary school uses sign language (not BSL, we are not in the UK) to some extent.
Some of the pupils communicate non-verbal, with signs and without, so the teachers sign alongside speaking for some lessons.
Interested kids can also do extracurricular sign language lessons.
When they sing the school hymn they all sign AND sing at the same time, which looks beautifull and is oddly touching.

But, speaking as a health care provider with LOADS of contact to people from different backgrounds: ALL the deaf people I've ever encountered were perfectly capable of communicating without signing, by writing, gestures and many could also read from my lips.

With people from certain ethnic backgrounds, that is not the case. I've encountered whole families, immigrated two generations ago where NONE of the females speaks enough german or english to communicate.
And it really is NO fun to get a male family member translate his sisters/wifes/mothers/cousins ob/gyn problems. For one, the females don't tell them what the problem is. Then the male does not have the necessary german vocubulary to translate correctly, and he might be embarassed to speak about "lady stuff" to a female HCP.
Which essenstially leaves us very much in the dark.
So for me, it would have much more beneficiary to have learnt arabic oder turkish.

I'm really surprised by some of these comments and can see why most deaf people don't really like hearing people. It's not hard to see why the deaf community are so closed off to "outsiders"

Agree with this! I've found the deaf community to be nothing but incredibly welcoming. Getting the perspective of deaf adults has been invaluable for me in helping to decide how best to raise a deaf child (slightly off on a tangent there).

IMHO for young kids, learning bsl would do great things for their communication skills, as having to get your point across without using your voice is a great skill to have. Also i have found that bsl teaches a lot about English grammar.

Deaf people can't use another language, they don't have that luxury
That's not true actually. A lot of BSL users also communicate through English and lipreading. If you are looking at people who ONLY use BSL the number is even smaller. And of course, not all deaf people use sign language!

I agree friendly. I found the deaf community wonderful but I had to prove myself and really show that I wanted to a part of it. A lot of them had been "used" by countless students to gain experience and then dropped once they'd passed. Then you get the attitudes like those on this thread where people say it's not useful. If I were deaf I'd feel like a sec

I've never had the need to use sign language in my 31 years, though I have used makaton with special needs children and with babies.

I've used French both here in the U.K. As well as in France though, multiple times. So no, I don't see why BSL would be taught in schools. French/Spainish/German and/or first aid would be a much better use of education.

Sorry sent too soon.
Second class citizen

That's not true actually. A lot of BSL users also communicate through English and lipreading. If you are looking at people who ONLY use BSL the number is even smaller. And of course, not all deaf people use sign language!

Ah that's fine then, we'll just keep all the onus on them to lipread and use English. Far better that than have us hearing folk learn to sign or adapt to help them eh

It would be good if they taught it in nursery and the start of primary. DD is bilingual and we were advised to teach sign language first as it would enable her to communicate effectively before either language was fully established. It really did help; she's 3 now and you can say a word in one language and she'll tell you the word in the other language and show you the sign.

I think everyone should have a basic understanding. I also think everyone should have a basic understanding of first aid (including making a 999 call), how taxes work, and how to swim, but we're a long way off all of that already unfortunately.

I'm not sure why anyone says learning BSL is a waste of time though. Having an additional skill, especially a language, is never a waste of time. I don't think it should be taught at the expense of MFL but I do think it's time we update the languages taught in schools to include Polish, Urdu etc on offer in as many schools as possible.

NoFucks - I was just pointing out the misinformation that was posted on this thread. It actually ISN'T useful if you look at the number of people you can potentially use it with, compared to other languages. That's just the truth! It doesn't mean that it shouldn't be studied or that nobody wants to communicate with deaf people . I am currently learning a language which is only spoken by a few thousand people - absolutely no use at all. Still doing it though!

Oh where to start.

1 in 6 of us have a hearing loss of some description and this figure is going to get higher as we live longer. Just learning some basic Deaf awareness and the fingerpelling alphabet would benefit every single one of us, which you'd learn on a sign language course.

BSL could just be offered as an option alongside foreign languages. Why do people get so het up about it replacing spoken foreign languages? Who said that was a thing? There are many amazing Deaf BSL teachers who would snap up teaching opportunities.

Many, many Deaf BSL users do not write or read English in the way that hearing people do. It can be seen as rude and a cop out when people immediately resort to this or think this is an adequate means of communication. If you learnt basic skills to communicate by clear lip pattern, making sure your face is lit, don't cover your mouth etc, then that would start bridging the gap. Even better, to throw a few signs in the mix would show an appreciate on peoples differences and wouldn't hurt anyone!

When people say they've never met a sign language user/Deaf person, in the nicest way possible, that's likely to be absolute rubbish. How do you know that people around you aren't Deaf or don't sign?

Just a note-ASL is American Sign Language not a global signed language. There is international sign, but not all countries use it. BSL is British sign language and is only used in Britain.

And lastly, most Deaf BSL users see themselves as a linguistic minority and don't need people to think they are impaired in any way, or need fixing or anyones pity...just as an FYI.

But it would be VERY useful for deaf people and to help them, not only to feel more integrated into society but maybe to not feel invisible to everyone else

No, most people in Wales can't speak Welsh. About 20% of the population can speak Welsh. Everyone else has to learn some in school and do at least a half GCSE but most leave knowing the same amount as someone learning French i.e. not very much unless taken past GCSE.

Spot on sausage

I find that a bit patronising if I'm honest! I have deaf friends and it would not occur to them that they need "integrating".

I've never had to use sign language but we now have a little one in our family who is profoundly deaf, so yes, I think it's a great idea.

Do you tell your deaf friends you don't think sign should be taught in schools? I think you're scraping the barrel trying to make out what I said was patronising to be honest.

'1 in 6 of us have a hearing loss of some description and this figure is going to get higher as we live longer. Just learning some basic Deaf awareness and the fingerpelling alphabet would benefit every single one of us, which you'd learn on a sign language course'

Yes I agree to Deaf awareness and fingerspelling as a basic skill for people in front line services.
However If you haven't been brought up with or work with Deaf people and use BSL every single day then doing BSl level 1, 2 and 3 is a long hard process that won't give you anywhere near the skills to converse fluently with Deaf people. I think there is often an unrealistic idea about 'learning BSL'. I have Deaf friends, they of course are welcoming but they do get tired of hearing people learning BSL level 1 and 2 and using them for practice, realising they'll never be proficient then giving up.

Do you tell your deaf friends you don't think sign should be taught in schools?

No, and I didn't say that here either. In fact, I have said that, as a linguist, I am all for learning minority languages!

If any of your friends went to a hearing school I guarantee they would have felt invisible and like an outcast at points. Not teaching sign as standard is divisive and separates communities. There's nothing wrong with wanting everyone to be integrated into a bigger and more inclusive community.
Anyway, if nothing else this thread has made me determined to go back and redo my level 2 bel once Iv passed my nursing.

I am deaf or more accurately deafened, as are most deaf people you are likely to meet. English is my first language I & most other deaf or hearing impaired people do not use sign language & whilst I think it would be good if people learned to sign I understand that is difficult . To communicate with most People you will meet with hearing Problems .please be aware That they will be lipreading and need you to speak clearly & lookdirectly at them.

Well then I'm not sure what you've been trying to achieve on this thread but it certainly came across that you didn't think it was a good idea

Where do you think interpreters/advocates for Deaf people/sensory services workers and so on start, though? If you aren't exposed to or offered to learn basic sign language (unless yes you're brought up with it, obvs) how do you know you wouldn't make a great interpreter?

Yes, to learn BSL and become fluent does take years, but if we offer level 1 to our kids, they may find they have a real flair for it and go on to make fantastic BSL professionals later in life...Or, at the very least, they will learn about a linguistic minority who are very present in our community which is also a great thing.