AIBU - Kids and religion

[AnnoyedinJanuary]

I'm having a bit of a struggle at the moment. I was raised a practising Catholic, mass on Sunday, baptised, communion, confirmation, church wedding etc, but over the last 20 years or so I have lapsed. This is not just in relation to the Catholic Church (which I have huge issues with, child abuse, women's rights, stashing all their riches instead of helping the poor, gay rights and on and on), but also I have trouble in believing in God. The rational more scientific side of my brain questions what I was taught growing up, the fact that the world is older than 5,000 years, that it wasn't created over the course of a week and that if God really did exist, why doesn't he step in now to show his presence and stop the despots and I also abhor how animals are treated in almost every way and if they are also God's creatures why does he let the levels of absolute cruelty continue when they have no say in their destiny or what happens to them - this is one of my biggest bug bears if I am honest. As a child I always asked - why didn't he just make Hitler die of measles when he was a kid and save the world from the horrors of World War 2 and I was never given an answer which satisfied me. I know religion is about having "faith" and removing the scientific side of things and men having free will to know good from evil - but in the bible God appeared all the time, parted the sea, set bushes on fire and flooded the earth so we could all start over and I although I am not a believer still know right from wrong. I also have issues with far right conservatives who use the bible to try and influence laws within a country - e.g. gay marriage or halt progressive politics and change. When I hear what some of them say quoting the bible and what Jesus said I recoil and know that for me I am best off out of all that when it comes to deciding a particular way to vote or how to judge a situation.

I also look at what the Catholic Church has done historically to the inhabitants of the various countries it went to as part of colonisation from Europe in terms of converting the locals and it is very hard to stomach. This will sound like I am bashing the Church, but personally I see more wrong with it than I see good when it is reviewed over the last 2,000 years. Though I do admire and respect the current Pope for the way he is inching forward slowly. I really do.

My parents who are no longer with me were both religious, though one more so than the other, one used to question the teachings of the Catholic Church versus the reality and had the stories which showed it was far from a Christian enterprise it was more about controlling the people and dictating their lives. I now have children and the eldest is getting to the stage where we need to consider whether we will start to teach her about God. My husband also raised a Catholic though not really practising doesn't believe at all, sees religion (all religion) as a neurosis (and please that is not to insult anyone who is religious that's just his opinion) and so he doesn't want to particularly go down that path. I don't either if I am honest, because I feel I would be a hypocrite. I would instead rather instruct my children to have good values, tolerance of others and a sound basis in scientific fact, evolution, respect for the planet etc and I know I don't need the bible for that. In fact a part of me thinks would we all be better off if religion didn't exist and we felt that this life was the only one we had and that we are all worm food when we're gone, and that all the wars caused by religion or the persecution of one religion by another (and the Catholic Church is certainly not alone in that matter) wouldn't have happened if there were no God to believe in. Sure we would probably have found other ways, but it would not have stemmed from a religious base. So what I struggle with is that if I do not instruct my kids now say and then let them make their own mind up later on - in the same way they learn the violin in and do ballet and then see if later on they really like it - am I making a decision for them because of my beliefs and should I go down the route of taking them to mass and letting them make their communion etc and then later in life they can make up their own mind and pretend (because it would be that) that I also believe in God. We have a chance now to start our eldest on the path to making her first communion but I am not sure that this is something I want for them now more than ever when I see how certain events in the world taking place, I feel the most important thing is to raise them in the school of hard, scientific facts and knowledge but is it right I make that choice? Would they regret missing out later on? And I also feel I am in some way letting my parents down, whom I know would see mass and communion and religion as a very important aspect in their life and want that for my children, so I have that guilt also. My parent who criticised the church always said to make sure there was space for God in my life, but I don't believe and so I would be effectively lying to my children about my own beliefs in order to cultivate theirs.

God fills a void for people who either don't want to ask questions/have easy answers, or for people who want their fears nullified and prejudices justified. You're quite right about the horrors in the world and how any good deity wouldn't allow them to happen (especially on a mass scale). However, it seems the religious can justify it by some magical unknown 'plan' this silent master has, or placate themselves with the imagined heaven that supposedly awaits them when they do die.

We would be better off without religion. It's at best false hope, at worse brainwashing and used to hurt many people. As for teaching kids, well you can easily teach them about love and being good people without the embellished stories of the past. I certainly wouldn't teach my kids any deity is real, I prefer sticking to facts (especially ones that have evidence like the Big Bang and evolution).

You don't have to teach anyone about gods It's not compulsory.

Summary for other readers:

My DH and I are lapsed Catholics. Should we take DC to church so they can make up their own mind, or not?

My answer:

Don't take them to church. Talk neutrally about all religions. If they find a faith later in life then that's fine.

You have to look at it in perspective.

The Vatican has amazing scientists. They are total believers in evolution, have fantastic telescopes etc. You can't fault them on science.

They can't, logically be the only way though. Lutherans have a great outlook, but without the Vatican's wealth.

In the end, you have faith, or you don't. You prescribe, or you don't.

You are not compelled to follow a particular church.

I do admire Francis, and the open approach to science of the Vatican though.

The thing is, you're making a choice for your kids either way - either bringing them up with no religion, or putting them on a Catholic path - when it really isn't such a binary choice.

You are obviously looking at it through the lens of your Catholic upbringing - I do the same with my Anglican upbringing and it's really hard to see past that.

But the thing is it's not binary. If you put them on a Catholic path because you're worried about them regretting missing out, then logically you should be worried about them regretting missing out on a Jewish, or Sikh, or Muslim, or whatever else upbringing.

I think there's an option which isn't atheistic (which would be my ideal) but neutral, which is what I'm doing (and toning down my lack of belief because DS1 is at a CofE school and I don't want to make things confusing and problematic for him). So we do a lot of 'some people believe this, and some people believe something else, and some people don't believe in any gods'.

He currently believes in the Anglo/Saxon/Norse tradition because the school seem to have made a good case for the existence of a god or gods, but not a good enough case for the Christian one. DS's argument is that we wouldn't have named the days of the week after them if they weren't real.

We encourage science, critical thinking, questioning and we are honest in our answers.

I don’t think that by leaving it up to them you are deciding for them, as they can still find religion later if they want to. Some people do.

I think it would definitely be worse to bring them up as Catholics, especially when you and your husband don’t believe yourself.

It’s something I’ve often grappled with. I was raised Catholic. My dad is an atheist and strongly disagrees with the Catholic church’s teachings, but still attends Mass most weeks and is active in the community. I don’t know what my Mum believes. I don’t believe in any of it, but I feel a strong attachment to my local church as I’ve been going there all my life and everyone is so lovely. I feel like a huge hypocrite going to church. I enjoy the hymns and the rituals and all sorts. From the outside I probably seem quite pious, but I actually think it’s all bollocks. I really don’t want to go to church but I don’t want to lose my community.

I was about 7 when one day in Collective Worship at school I suddenly realised the implication of saying we believe rather than we know. I can still remember the feeling like the bottom of my world had fallen out when I realised actually there might be no God and no heaven. I developed a huge anxiety about death.

If I had children it would be difficult, but I’d definitely not have them baptised or take them to church. I wouldn’t want them to be as conflicted as I was as a child or now.

You can still teach them about the cultural aspects of Catholicism, and about all the different religions around the world.

It’s not science versus religion. Science is fact. You aren’t choosing that for them. It just is. Lots of people still follow religion despite believing in potentially contradictory science so even that doesn’t rule out religion if they’re reallt keen.

Like OP my parents are practicing Christian believers. I am agnostic but did follow "tradition" in having church wedding, more to appease family to be honest. As for DS, I have tried to tell him about the preachings, i.e., what the Christmas and Easter festivals mean, but as well as saying other people have different beliefs and different festivals but religion isn't important to everyone, but being a good and tolerant person is what applies to is all. I have told him he can make his own choices based on an informed opinion of what he chooses to believe. Personally I dislike any religion "forced" on young people, I think it should be their choice.

Jassyradlett - yes we do tell them about other gods - especially mythology in the sense of what people believed at various times, in the god of the sun, the sea the wind etc and also talk about what other children in their class believe as they know some of their friends do not eat Pork for example and we do encourage them to learn scientific facts about the history of the planet, the fact that there are other suns and planets in the galaxy and how exciting all that is.

On the other hand OP, if your local schools have a 'faith' criteria, you might well wish to re-find your faith so your DC is higher up the priority list ...

Yabu to let the catholic church anywhere near your child

WhatWouldLeslieKnopeDo - I had a similar experience to you when I was 8 and became fascinated with dinosaurs, suddenly I couldn't reconcile the fact that they existed for millions of years against creating the earth in 8 days and the same with prehistoric man, it went against Adam and Eve and I would say that is where my questioning started and I have never truly believed since then if I am honest. And like you I remember feeling that there might not be a God after all - I still remember that feeling to this day. A sort of penny dropping. I was raised in a very catholic only country so knew little of other religions until I was an adult and am still ashamed sometimes about how little I know and understand of other religions. We knew about Protestants but that was it and were never taught anything but Catholic doctrine while at school. Different times I know but I am still angry that we weren't told other religions existed.

Jassy wins the prize for most perfect answer and best username!!

We do this. I had an atheist upbringing, DH a religious one. We are both atheists now although FIL and MIL both v religious still. We talk about all religions in the same way - "some people believe". I am v hot on respecting beliefs so we talk a lot about how everyone can believe what they want and it's a private and personal decision. And we end up talking more about that than about God/Jesus/heaven or whatever in the first place.

DH and I come from a mixed background - Catholic, C of E, Judaism.

Neither of us are religious but we have taught our children (alongside school) a bit about all religions. We've talked about choice, where the religions overlap, where they differ, etc. They have asked questions and if we don't know the answer we've looked it up or found someone to ask.

We've talked about tolerance, understanding and respect.

Despite all being staunch atheists it's a regular debate as we think of new things to discuss, a perspective we hadn't considered.

araiwa - yes that's my feeling. I don't trust them after all the abuse and how they covered it up and looking back at my country's past, the way women were second class citizens in so many ways (actively promoted by Church teachings) and had to stay with abusive partners because divorce wasn't allowed and I don't want them to get their hands on them. I want my daughters to grow up free of all that.

Ah, Persis, back at you!

Maybe we should have a club for Slightly Obscure But Brilliant Female Literary Character Usernames.

/derail - sorry OP!

I was christened into CoE, but mainly because of tradition. My parents are atheists - my dad never followed any religion and was never baptised, my maternal grandmother has a belief in God but didn't really bring my mum up with any religion. DH was brought up in a mixed Catholic/CoE family where all his older siblings are Catholic and he and his younger siblings are CoE (dad Catholic, mum CoE). He and I are both atheists and we decided not to have DS christened.

At 12 DS announced he wanted to become a Christian. He took himself off to bible study with our local vicar and arranged his own baptism. He goes to church occasionally now he's 17. I'm pleased that we were able to give him the choice to find his own way, and that although we don't share his beliefs he feels free to practice his religion.

You cover 3 aspects of Roman Catholicism - the community aspect, involving a congregation and rites of passage, the institution and the Church (including its failures in relation to child protection), and its metaphysical teachings. It sounds like you are uncomfortable with the second and third , but you are wondering whether to include the children in the first.

Personally, I think too many people get hung up on the third. Christian theological history is full lengthy arguments about the existence of God and the problem of evil and suffering in a world that they teach was created by and cared for by an omniscient omnipotent God. If I am honest, I don't think any of these have either persuaded a non-believer to join or a believer to leave the Church. They are better viewed as intellectual games. As a result, I don't thin this should necessarily be your deciding factor in relation to whether you take your children to church / Sunday school.

Your concerns about failures in the Roman Catholic Church are valid. Here again though, I wouldn't necessarily make this a deciding factor either, as that involves blaming everyone in the church for the failures of the perpetrators and those who covered up their crimes. As others have said, the Church has also produced many great thinkers and many incredibly selfless people. Your local vicar might be the most trustworthy, kind and pastorally concerned person imaginable. He might give a thought provoking sermon and his church might run an engaging Sunday school that children enjoy.

Remember that you were raised in the church and it hasn't prevented you from being able to think for yourself. It is perfectly possible to be a Christian and have good critical thinking skills. It is also perfectly possible to be a cultural Christian who is agnostic about many Christian teachings or to be brought up in a very or loosely Christian environment and reject it in its entirety. Indeed, the most committed Christians I know were not brought up with any kind of faith, so it is possible to do the reverse.

Personally, I would visit once and focus on your emotional response. Did you and your children enjoy the experience? Do you think you would enjoy being part of that congregation / community? Or did you feel slightly awkward or concerned you would get sucked in and not be able to bring your children while simultaneously maintaining your skepticism about religious dogma?

I think it's appalling to bring any child up teaching them that any religion is fact. Talk to them about all religions and beliefs, as well as non-beliefs and let them make their own mind up.

I don't think you should lie to your children OP, just tell them how you feel and if you don't know, say you aren't sure.
I believe in soul, source or god, although the word god creates certain negatives in some people. I don't follow and particular religion though.

Ps, I think it's best to let children make up their own mind when they're older.

you don't believe in god
tell them you don't believe in god

if they want to believe or choose a religion later, they can.

For some people religion is a cast iron rule and a way of avoiding taking responsibility for the choices they could make in life.

For others religion is a moral code and a guide to help them make choices and fully own their choices.

For some people religion is fact and unquestionable.

For others religion is the development of human understanding and an attempt to explain the world in a pre-empirical way.

For some people religion is fixed.

For others religion evolves to meet the needs of today's society.

OP... where to start.... in all honesty you are overthinking this.

I am by heritage an Anglican and by nature an atheist. I sometimes attend church services. The most important thing to me is that this is part of my culture which I want to partake in and sustain.

The question for you is do you want to share your culture with your children? It's really that simple. They can make their own minds up whether they believe in god, or whether the historical sins of the church repulse them in later life. Or whether they are simply grateful to have a shared experience, across generations, with their parents and grandparents and a solid sense of their own identity and heritage.

God fills a void for people who either don't want to ask questions/have easy answers, or for people who want their fears nullified and prejudices justified. I think this presumes god = religion and it doesn't IMHO.