Probably - But our LEA's process for secondary admissions seems completely unfair.

[MonochromeDog]

I actually feel like stamping my foot and shouting "waaaaa it's not fair".

We live across the road from one of the best secondary schools in the city! (Literally can see it from my house). I always though dd2 would have no problem getting in even though it's a faith school and we're not religious.

Yet it seems this year the LEA have decided to completely change the goalposts for secondary admissions and they don't base any of the decisions on distance from home to school.

So each school I've applied for you need to either be CofE (and have the obvious proof), pass an entrance exam (for a state school!) or have an aptitude for music or art. DD2 has none of these. She's dyslexic, struggles academically, and isn't really exceptionally good at any one thing, she's just average.

The one hope I have is one of the schools is an academy (not out nearest one) but is a good school and there's an entrance assessment. They take so many kids from each academic level.

Other than that she's going to end up in one of the city's shitty comps which incidentally the nearest is 2 bus rides away! As opposed to going the excellent school over the road!

Feeling completely frustrated and stressed with the whole bloody thing!

"Why would you just assume your child would get into a faith school if you are not of that faith?"

Maybe because they are run on taxpayers money and she is a taxpayer?

This whole situation is brought about by successive governments pretence of 'choice', and outsourcing to Adadrmies and Free Schools. Very few families actually have much 'choice' and the different means of covert selection have just created divide and increased polarisation.

"Why would you just assume your child would get into a faith school if you are not of that faith?"

Maybe because they are run on taxpayers money and she is a taxpayer?

Well ... yes and no. As far as Catholic schools go, a significant proportion of funding comes from the diocese. I assume a similar thing happens for Cof E schools. I can understand why priority is given to those who participate in or support the church community, as they are partially funding it.... as well as being taxpayers. It makes sense that they would be given higher eligibility than a non religious family.

When you say the other state schools have exams, do you mean banding tests? If so, these aren't pass or fail exams, they're just assessments of ability to make sure the school gets a spread of kids, so your DC is not disadvantaged. It's not about creaming off the most academic kids, quite the opposite.

What does the criteria say happens after the tests? Here some schools have a lottery system to choose the same number of kids from each ability band. Other schools use distance as the deciding factor after the banding instead. What I'm saying is it's unlikely your state schools have switched to full entrance examinations which is what you make it sound like. Only grammars and superselectives usually do that. The banding system should actually mean there's less chance of 'shitty comps'.

The religious element is a different matter and I'm surprised you ever thought you'd realistically get in without being religious. I don't particularly agree with their system but it's widespread and well known that non-religious kids are bottom of the list.

All that said, it's almost always a very stressful process so can understand your frustrations.

No, most of the faith schools round us run on the per capita funding from the state.

They certainly do not receive less money from the state than others.

I don't believe that faith schools should get any state funding if they operate a discriminatory admissions policy.

We have primary schools with a catchment area, both non-denominational and RC and you go to your nearest (parents pick faith or non-faith)

That only works up to a point in England, because in built-up areas the number of 4-year olds or 11-year olds in an area in any one year can vary a lot. You can have spare places one year and be massively oversubscribed the next. The LEA I used to work for had a shifting catchment area for each school. If they had 100 places for new kids, the catchment area would be the smallest circle that contained 100 kids.

This used to do parents' heads in completely. They'd be adamant that they'd moved into the catchment area and trying to explain that it was smaller this year to people who were upset and angry was a nightmare.

I used to help my colleague with the appeals, and he used to go on holiday for 3 weeks every August, when it was busiest. Parents were told to phone up the day after the appeal to find out the outcome. The amount of abuse I took in those 3 weeks was a bloody nightmare, there'd be swearing, threats, all sorts. Some parents used to travel halfway across the county just so they could shout and swear at me in person. One year, it was so bad I ended up off sick with stress.

I think part of the problem is that parents have the idea that they have a choice. All the regulations say is that parents have the right to express a preference, and that the LEA must take it into account.

If all schools were equally good, no-one would mind too much where their kids went, as long as it wasn't miles away. They should just stop having crappy schools imo!

If you have lived over the road from CofE wonder school for years and really are that desperate for her to go there, did you not think to forge links with a CofE church when your Dd was younger, as the admission policy gives favour this way and this will have been common knowledge for years?
Yes it's shitty, but you seem very het up on a system that doesn't work in favour of your child and you don't seem to be proactive about trying to salvage this. If the lovely school has diocese funding it will naturally prioritise children with proven links to the diocese.

If you have lived over the road from CofE wonder school for years and really are that desperate for her to go there, did you not think to forge links with a CofE church when your Dd was younger, as the admission policy gives favour this way and this will have been common knowledge for years?
Yes it's shitty, but you seem very het up on a system that doesn't work in favour of your child and you don't seem to be proactive about trying to salvage this. If the lovely school has diocese funding it will naturally prioritise children with proven links to the diocese.

Southwark doesn't have a single Community School at secondary level.

"They'd be adamant that they'd moved into the catchment area and trying to explain that it was smaller this year to people who were upset and angry was a nightmare."

Catchment areas are fixed priority admissions areas, and to be fair I don't think people realise that they can be changed (though as PP pointed out, there needs to be formal consultation about this in a specified time frame ahead of the change)

Calling the actual admissions area for a particular a catchment tends to confuse people. Not all areas have catchments, and it is very misleading for people moving from an area which does to an area which does not, and I can see why that causes anger.

@meditrina you understand my definition of catchment areas.

Our local two primary schools have one catchment area each that, in over 15 years, never changed. It has only recently changed due to the influx of new build houses (circa 100). It doesn't change every year and is very clearly stated on council websites.

The only way you'd get a suddenly larger influx of children would be if the whole dynamic of the catchment drastically changed in a year, which it doesn't. The incoming 4/5 year olds sit about the same level year on year.
The high schools do not have catchment areas but feeder primary schools and if you go to x primary you go to y high school, or you make a placing request.

The only issues we tend to have is when people make placing requests and do not get in, but they have an allocated place at their closest primary if in the catchment.

What does the criteria say happens after the tests? Here some schools have a lottery system to choose the same number of kids from each ability band. Other schools use distance as the deciding factor after the banding instead. What I'm saying is it's unlikely your state schools have switched to full entrance examinations which is what you make it sound like. Only grammars and superselectives usually do that. The banding system should actually mean there's less chance of 'shitty comps'.

I've put 3 preferences down, 1 school is an academy that does the banding tests and dd will be sitting that next week, (I'm hopeful about that, but it's a really popular school, all girls, previously a private school and oversubscribed every year in the hundreds! On open evening there was a queue out the door and all the way down the street people waiting to get in.)

Next school is a CofE school that also has an entrance exam for academics, and aptitude tests for music and art, I don't think she's got a hope in hell of getting into to that one!

Third is our closest school (over the road) and the one I'm so pissed off about her not having a chance of getting in. It's CofE and has places for girls who after taking aptitude tests in music and art are offered a place.

Then I'm left with the comps which ironically are all in really good areas (as opposed to the school near me which is in a deprived area) but have appalling ofsteds and appalling local reputations. And there's a couple of academies which are all pretty dire too.

If you have lived over the road from CofE wonder school for years and really are that desperate for her to go there, did you not think to forge links with a CofE church when your Dd was younger, as the admission policy gives favour this way and this will have been common knowledge for years?
Yes it's shitty, but you seem very het up on a system that doesn't work in favour of your child and you don't seem to be proactive about trying to salvage this. If the lovely school has diocese funding it will naturally prioritise children with proven links to the diocese.

You're right! I mostly was trying to not be a hypocrite. I don't believe in god, I hate going church and hate organised religions.

The thing is, if she'd have gone to secondary school last year she actually would have had a chance of getting in because they also used distance as a factor. This year, that's all changed and apparently, distance doesn't matter at all this year! I only know any of this because of a meeting for year 6 parents at her current primary school. The head has a daughter in my dd's class and she's well pissed off and frustrated with the whole thing!

Mostly I'm just angry as there's fuck all I can do and my child's future education and well being is in the hands of some faceless bureaucrat. I went through something similar 4 years ago with dd1 getting a statement and going to secondary school. Thankfully she got into a good special school and is really happy there.

As far as Catholic schools go, a significant proportion of funding comes from the diocese. I assume a similar thing happens for Cof E schools

The key wording here is "significant proportion". Not all of it.

Therefore, there should always be a number of places reserved for catchment pupils. If you live in the same road as a school you should be able to go there!

We don't have a catholic school in our town but the local CofE school used to reserve at least 20% of its places for kids who lived close by, regardless of faith.

I would also do away with all state funded faith schools. Nothing to do with the ECHR, other European countries are signed up to it and don't have them.

agree with what sailor is saying excpt that high schools do have a catchment in exactly the same way as primaries but their catchment usually covers the area that the feeder primaries cover. The difference comes if you live outside your catchment for primary and made a sucessful placing request and you are also outside the catchment from the associated high school. Then you'd still have to make a placing request to the high school regardless of the fact the child attended a feeder primary. That does catch people out.

The system is a lot simpler but I do understand that it doesn't work as well in highly populated areas.

Must be annoying monochrome. But do remember that most educational attainment is based on home environment not school performance. If you have caring parents who nurture you, talk to you and read to you, you are likely to do well in even the 'worst' performing schools. If you are neglected and ignored at home you are likely to do badly in even the 'best' schools.

I went to a 'shitty' comp and got straight As and an excellent degree, and I'm certainly no statistical aberration.

Mono But you still haven't answered the question about what happens after banding tests. Once the girls have been allocated a band, how do they choose from the band? Is it distance or lottery? If distance what were the previous last distance offered figures compared with where you are.

Similarly the CofE schools. In previous years have they only taken children 'of faith', and none on distance at all?

TeenTimesTwo with the academy that does the entrance test, once they're put in a band, it's a lottery.

With the CofE, previously they've taken a certain number of children on distance, but that has now stopped.

Meh. I was annoyed when DD couldn't get into our preferred school. Not roman catholic enough apparently, despite being baptised and brought up RC.

Then I happened to be passing by the local influx of children foinf to said school and the attitudes and language I heard coming from them made me glad DD couldn't get in.

DD is currently thriving in the school she is now in. You never know OP.

I am open mouthed appalled at an entrance exam for a state school!!!

Is that normal nowadays???

I don't even think there should be entrance exams for private schools!!!

You can't claim to be good at being a school (iyswim) if all you do is pick the brightest kids.

I am open mouthed appalled at an entrance exam for a state school!!!

Is that normal nowadays???

Very normal. The school around here that everyone wants their DC in has entrance exam potential students have to sit. Incidentally it's another faith school too...

OK.
So the academy that uses banding tests (not an entrance exam) you have as much chance of getting in as any other DC.

The CofE used to take non-faith children 'on distance', but 'this has now stopped'. Are you saying that non-faith children are in the lowest criteria and now they get enough 'of faith' applications that the category for 'non-faith' children is never reached any more? I don't think they can leave spaces empty if there aren't enough 'faith' children.

The other CofE school. Is that also a banding system? And then how do they decide who gets in? First faith, then non faith? And how do they distinguish between those in the same category? Also lottery or distance?

The usual guidance is to put one 'banker' on the list. but you are saying you don't have a banker due to not being of faith and lottery rather than distance rules. You still haven't really explained the criteria very clearly, so you must make sure you do understand them before putting in your application and how likely you are to get or not get a place. You may want to apply to one of the further out schools too that is under-subscribed under the spirit that it is 'less bad' than other under-subscribed ones.

Also, when looking at your preferred local schools, try to find things that would be particularly good for your DD (e.g. extra good dyslexia provision) so that if you decide to appeal to get them you can explain why it would be such a good fit for your DD, and so much better than the allocated school.

Waves at Draylon but disagrees.

I think that fair banding means that lower achievers are spread out and Progress 8 means that schools can't let the lowest 20% in a school be ignored.

I do also take some slight objection to the description of lower achievers being more likely to be more disruptive. My DD is a lower achiever and is definitely not disruptive. Disruptive behaviour should not be permitted at any level of ability and all schools should take ownership in ensuring behaviour standards are high. My DD if anything needs better behaviour in her classes than brighter kids as she benefits more from teacher explanations.

I do feel however that a situation where a family has limited choice due to a high number of faith schools in the area is poor. I think I think that faith places should be limited to, say, 50% of the intake.