To ask if your child passed to the 11 plus how much work they did in preparation.

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DS is sitting the 11 plus in a few weeks time. It is his choice to do it, probably based on the fact that so do all the other boys in his year. We have been doing a little bit most days of the holidays (15 mins) but DS has come home today from school talking about the amount of work others have done. One has done 4 hours every day another has sat 7 formal mock exams every week. I'm now feeling as though we haven't given this enough time. I know this quite a debated subject but alternative schools are not great so I am so desperate to get him. Mothers at the gate play down the amount of work so I would really appreciate some honest input.

Those who dont prep at all how do you deal with covering yr 6 maths curriculum. Our area GL test definitely included yr 6 and beyond maths yet the test is week 3 of yr 6. This maths won't have been covered at all by a yr 5 child in state school.

Exactly right. It's not as though this stuff is stuff you just know. You need to cover it or it's unfair on the poor child.

And I don't agree that kids will struggle if tutored as I would imagine 95 % of kids are tutored. Obvs all mn children passed with flying colours having just had a past paper waved in front of their faces the night before the test but back in the real world.....

busyboysmum Mine only did 11+ exam last year so still very fresh in memory. The maths was the real thing that stood out for me. A child would have no chance unless someone (tutor/parent) taught them. 50 questions in 50 mins is not the time to start figuring things out no matter how 'bright' you are.

My DD learnt nothing new in maths in yr 6. She had had to learn it in yr 5 (plus the yr 5 maths) to prep for test. She revised and expanded in yr 6 but no new concepts. I wonder if it was less of an issue in past when brighter children may be moved up a class for maths or given work from class above. My understanding is national curriculum is now about stretching and expanding not just giving the child the next years work.
The posters that say they did no maths prep I can only think children had been taught anyway maybe at school not bound by national curriculum (private) or did extra maths anyway so not classing it as 11 plus prep - kumon, online stuff etc or maybe not all grammar areas test maths.
All I know was there was definitely maths on the exam and practice papers a normal yr 5 child will not have been taught in class, there was stuff I remembered doing for GCSE.

Absolutely none. Children were automatically put in by the borough for section tests, although I now believe that has changed to parental request for entry. I knew he'd pass, and he did, very comfortably. The only prep I did was to remind him to make sure that answer related to the question, that his OMR didn't get out of sync and he didn't turn two pages over and lose 20 questions.

Dixiechickonhols it's the same where we are. We do CEM so maybe different in other areas.

My son's good friend who is super intelligent had no tuition or preparation and failed miserably. He's really unhappy at the secondary modern. His mum said to me she felt as if she'd let him down. He so should be at the grammar school.

We were lucky at our primary that dc was put in lessons with either a LSA or peers 2 years ahead or from year 5 took their maths and English classes at the local secondary school who did a partnership learning thing with primaries for the bright kids. For us the prep was mainly about the exam.

Honestly? A few past maths papers in the summer before the eleven plus, and a few NVR papers so dd knew the format of the exam and how long she'd have to do it.

No tutoring. She passed.

We were out of county, so dd's school did nothing to prepare for the 11+.

But how much prep you do all depends on your dc, the competition, and what you need to do to get in your chosen school. The majority of dd's classmates now still have tutoring each week. Bonkers.

My daughter has just started year 5 what work should she be doing to prepare for grammar test?

There's a few from our year 6 that have been told from the off that they WILL be going to the grammar! I now have my popcorn at the ready watching the chaos that is nightly mocks and all extra activities cancelled... poor kids, if they need to be pushed and pushed what's gonna happen when they can't keep up and feel like the thick one. They would all be just fine at the local comp but obviously that's not good enough.

DD has just gone into year 5, and I have paid for a tutoring package. 1:4 classes, an hour a wee until February, then 2 hours a week. Then a 2 week intense course (an hour per day) in August. The company offer 20 session slots a week and when I enquired only 2 slots were available, the rest were booked up.

I have no doubt she is bright enough for grammar school, but why wouldn't I pay for a tutor when I have the means to. It's unfair to expect anyone to sit any exam blind, with no prep. I certainly wouldn't expect a 10yo to.

agree with dixie, there is a lot in the maths that isn't necessarily taught in year 5.

and yes, mine all coasted through year 6 and SATs having prepped for 11+

The phrase - if you have to do all that work/tutoring for 11+ then maybe they shouldn't be there is really misleading.

Take my student this year. Very intelligent, easily of grammar standard, and there is one school which is sort of super, super selective, and I expect her to pass for it.
She certainly didn't need weekly tutoring, but had she had no prep at all, I don't think she would pass. She had never seen any Non verbal reasoning, and needed some practice on that. She had never seen the answer sheets and got it wrong the first time.
Her maths is amazing, but there are lots of maths facts that she has learnt so that she can recall then very quickly
(eg, internal angles of a triangle add up to 180, definition of correct terminology eg prime/factor)

She hasn't been tutored up to the test, she has been made ready for the test. There is a difference. And in these days where everyone is prepped in some way, I do think it is necessary. It is, for most, their first experience of any sort of formal exam.

Also, if you are in a grammar area, eg Kent, they take about 25%/30% of kids into grammar schools. In our area it is about 5%. But we have fewer kids per lace than in some of those London boroughs where the competition is very stiff. Also, some areas the tests is taken as part of the school day, but for us you have to travel to the grammar school and sit it there on a Sat, much more intimidating.

And yes I am a tutor, but the first thing I say to parents is that they don't need me, they coudl do it them selves and show them how, but they prefer to have me to it.

Kids who are over tutored really don't cope. My dc told me about 2 in their year who were from private schools (who tutor the kids to sit the 11+) and received parental tuition and couldn't keep up, skipped homework, and generally dicked about in class. A little bit of help is fine. Going ott will do your child no favours.

Whatshould - which area are you?

someone up thread asked me where I was, I tutor kids (and my kids) for the Gloucestershire grammar schools

Gloucestershire

Oh good coincidence! Can I privately message you?

super selective area.

DS3 (didn't bother sitting the other two as they would never have got in) one tutoring session 2 hours / week and one mock exam sessions per month. Tutoring for 2 years, mock exam practice for one year (so one academic year as exam Nov)

I did very little / nothing at home as just too busy and took the view that, as its super selective if I over tutored him he would struggle once there (if he got a place on the back of loads of tutoring) Got in and sits in top third of class I would say now.

Don't over do it. Bottom of the class struggling at a grammar is a shit place to be

Ok, unless you are aiming for Pates, then it is pretty easy to do it yourself.

Buy the CPG 11+ practice books, one for each subject - English, Maths, Verbal Reasoning and Non Verbal Reasoning. Make sure you have 'practice' not 'study' and that they are age 10-11

Work through them with your dc. If you come across a topic they haven't covered, you should easily be able to find stuff on-line to help teach it.
For the maths they need to remember things QUICKLY (I make up a quick maths facts sheet for revision) for the verbal reasoning it is all about vocab, so every time they come across a new word, make a card, find a synonym and an antonym. Learn the card.

Use the practice tests at the back of the book next summer - they get harder, don't worry if the last ones are very hard.

It really isn't difficult to prep a child who is the right acdemic ability, if they can do what is in the books, they are fine. You could start now and do a bit each week (dd2 is year 5 and we will start next week)
Or you could wait until after Easter and then work a bit harder (dd1 crammed it all into summer holidays- not to be recommended)

PM me if you like

x-post - that was to Whatshould

It is in the tutors interests to over egg the amount of prep required and certainly it panics parents.
Agree some assistance with maths probably helps and also a few practice questions so the style doesn't surprise them.
After that I haven't seen much that will help. This is only from observations from friends rather than anything else.

I agree Ktown (and I speak as a tutor)

But it is really easy to DIY prep, as I have outlined for Whatshould above.

And I tell all prospective parents that they can do it themselves and how to do it.

Most of my tutees however come from families where English is not the first language and they feel more confident with me doing it.

Again, the level required and the amount of prep required does depend on where you are, and which school you are aiming for.

Thanks steppemum

I've googled but can't find a list of super selective schools. It's a new term to me, is it informal? The grammar I am governor is consistently amongst the highest achieving in the country, but I wasn't aware of any "super" selectivity in the entrance requirements.

I understand super selective means no catchment so a child anywhere in country can sit and they take the top 150 scores or however many places there are. No pass mark means child needs to be 90% plus to stand a chance. Very few local children will get places. School is taking top few % ability wise.

Other grammars have catchments. Pass and you are in if you are in catchment. Pass may be 75%. Probably a couple at least from each local primary school go. Totally different ball game.

Sorry meant to say I think it is an informal term and again is something parents have to look into or be told. Will be clear from admissions info what sort it is.

Now this is getting interesting. The borough has a catchment and a local policy for admissions, but a large proportion of pupils come from outside catchment - because not enough local children achieve the required standard (it's a cut-off grade, rather than taking the top x%). Does that fit in with being "super selective"?

Over preparation will do your child no favours in the long term.

yes they may need some prep for the exam papers after all they haven't sat exams before, however if you are tutoring them to the hilt and they get in off the back of that tutoring, then they are going into the grammar system because of the prep not because o the aptitude they have. And secondary is different. In a class of 30 they can be a big fish in a small pond if they do relatively wel. However in the grammar system they are as a rule on a level footing with all the other children who will have passed the same tests to get there, many with minimal preparation, and where they were top of the tables in primary they suddenly have to cope with being at the bottom and struggling against the children with natural aptitude. Don't do it to them.

Mine had about four tutoring sessions and we bought the exam books for him to do some of the practice tests but that was it. He didn't score in the top sets for entry into the school of our choices for the area but he scored highly enough to be in the grammar system without the concern of struggling. He's now in the top set for his GCSE subjects.

I know however of a child who is being tutored three times a week plus home practice tests and who is still struggling. If she passes she is going to have huge problems once she enters the grammar system and will likely end up in a situation where she'll have to leave at the end of her GCSE's as she won't fit the requirements for 6th form. That's something else to consider. This isn't just a one off issue, if they get in because of excessive tutoring/prep you are setting them up for problems throughout the rest of their school career.