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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think all ages should be paid the same.

109 replies

Potterhead113 · 03/09/2017 09:14

AIBU to think that all age groups from 16 and upwards should be paid the same minimum wage as someone aged 40 for example. I know many young people aged 16-25 who are paid less for the same job as their elder coworkers but they equally pay rent and provide in some cases for children solely from their wages.
I think that all people should be payed the same for the same job. I know a girl who is 17 who has a baby and works 4 days a week for £2 less an hour than someone in their 30s that she works with who does the same job as her.

OP posts:
GreenTulips · 03/09/2017 15:59

I don't know how many times I've said this

Yes I hear you but - we have school leavers and people die or retire - start their own business, move abroad - there always room to move up - new companies starting, new 'ideas' new technolog.

We don't have many Minors any more but we have computer technicians, we didn't have household appliances now we have designers builders are repairers,

There are options you need to keep an eye out and push you employer

If you stack shelves, ask to go on the tills or customer service, if you work in a factory ask for training heavy lifting or fork lift truck etc health and safety

Make sure you are either invaluable or more marketable for another employer

corythatwas · 03/09/2017 16:08

yes, that is fine as advice to an individual, GreenTulip

but it is not fine as an explanation of why we don't need to pay decent wages to people in low paid jobs

because there are never going to be enough school leavers/people retiring to ensure that we do not also need a large number of people above the age of 20 doing jobs that are currently paid at an appallingly low rate

GreenTulips · 03/09/2017 16:11

Then - we would have to pay more to more staff - you can't just give lo lower paid people more money and not expect the next rung up to not want tonne paid more - where will it end?

corythatwas · 03/09/2017 16:15

In my workplace there is a good deal of support for raising the wages of the lowest paid only, and quite right too. I don't see why I would have to be recompensed because other people got enough to live on when I got enough to live on in the first place.

Other countries manage with a lower pay gap, and some of them do better than the UK.

StickThatInYourPipe · 03/09/2017 16:18

It seems to be the case mainly in retail and food, in our company we don't hire under 18 (due to type of company) but after that all are paid the same for the same role.

If I was 18 now. I would join an agency instead of going it alone. They seem to lead to better paid roles for under 25s (in my admittedly limited experience)

Ta1kinPeece · 03/09/2017 17:15

greentulip
One of my clients digs holes on building sites. He's really good at it, but there is not much "career progression" available.
Three clients hang windows on the outside of big buildings : again, nit much "career progression"
Two are bricklayers
Three are plumbers
Six are tattooists

I used to deal with industrial painters (literacy not needed)
the jobs "market" is so utterly different than the policy setters think ....

corythatwas · 03/09/2017 17:25

Ta1king, in GreenTulip's world, your client (and all the other thousands of manual labourers of Britain) should just show their newly applied skills sets to their employer who would instantly promote them to manager posts and all the holes would be dug by 16yos.

(Is it even legal to let minors do dangerous work like hanging heavy windows on the outside of buildings?)

Ta1kinPeece · 03/09/2017 17:35

cory
the windows guys all have harness abseiling qualifications
that fact that two of them cannot read or write (long story and quite surreal)
was beside the point
and yes, youngsters did it - like father like son

my lads clad West Quay Grin

HelenaDove · 03/09/2017 17:41

"I didn't spend on other things."

And if everybody did that the companies selling those "other things" would go under and the jobs there would no longer exist.

HelenaDove · 03/09/2017 17:45

lljkk Sun 03-Sep-17 15:48:31
"25 yrs ago there was no minimum wage. Heck, Germany had no minimum wage until very recently, too. You could legally get paid 5p/hour back in 1995."

YES Be prepared for an attempt on here to gaslight you about this though and to be told you are remembering it wrong like i was on a previous thread.

lljkk · 03/09/2017 17:51

It is annoying when MNers call you a liar for something (unfairly). :(
Anyway, no shortage of info online about the controversy when New Labour brought Min wage in (1997). No shortage of new stories about Tories still opposing NMW as recently as 5 yrs ago. Some interesting analyses about their policy position reversal, too.

Ta1kinPeece · 03/09/2017 17:54

Minimum wages per se are a good thing
but when they rise too high they become divisive
as they reduce the options for staff development

tax free allowances are a good thing
but when they rise too high they become divisive

as once 46% of the population are no longer paying direct income tax, they cease to value the things that derive from that tax
like hospitals and schools
1p on everybody would improve accountability
even though it would raise less than 5p on the rich

HelenaDove · 03/09/2017 17:59

The 1993 Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Act removed the remaining minimum wage protection for some 2.5 million low paid workers by abolishing the last 26 UK Wages Councils

HelenaDove · 03/09/2017 18:02

15th December 1992

ONE in four workers who approached the Scottish Low Pay Unit in the

past year was being paid below the legal minimum rate set by the wages

council.

This fact was highlighted in a ''Food for Thought'' survey carried out

for the pay unit by Roy Wood, senior lecturer at the Scottish Hotel

School in Strathclyde University.

The report comes at a time when the Government is intent on pushing

through Parliament legislation which will abolish the 26 wages councils

still in existence.

Wages councils were established in 1909 with the support of Sir

Winston Churchill who told the Commons it was required to protect

low-paid workers from unscrupulous employers.

But the present Government denies the lower paid require this

protection. Michael Forsyth, Minister of State at the Department of

Employment, who is responsible for the Trade Union Reform and Employment

Rights Bill which covers the abolition of the councils, wrote in a

letter date December 10: ''There is no good reason to believe that the

abolition of wages councils will lead to widespread reductions in pay .

. . It is of little help to workers to saddle employers with

bureaucratic requirements which do nothing to encourage enterprise and

initiative.''

The letter went on: ''Most of the workers covered by wages councils

are not poor; many work part-time and live in households with two or

more earners.'' Mr David Stark, the recipient of the letter, and an

official of the Transport and General Workers Union, however does not

agree with the Minister.

He said: ''Unfortunately there are a number of unscrupulous employers

who will take advantage of the absence of wages councils to cut wages.''

The author of the survey, Mr Roy Hood, said: ''I believe wages will

decline. Some employers will cut the hourly rate and there will also be

a general decline in the real value of wages over a period of years.''

The Scottish Low Pay Unit believes that existing evidence does not

back up Michael Forsyth's assertion. It points to numerous workers who

are not covered by wages council rates and who earn even lower than the

average of just over #3 an hour set by the councils.

It has examples of security guards who earn #1.70 an hour and have to

work 100 hours a week to earn a wage. It points to young receptionists

who are paid as little as #1.50 an hour, and the worst example of low

wages which the unit has on its file is that of a third-year apprentice

car mechanic who is paid #1 an hour.

Morag Gillespie, of the Scottish Low Pay Unit, said: ''There is

considerable evidence which suggests that once wages councils are

abolished wages will indeed be cut. The latest checks show that one in

10 workers covered by wages councils are underpaid. Take away the

protection of the councils and the wage levels could plummet even

more.''

More than 200,000 Scottish workers are covered by wages councils

including those in hairdressing, retail trades, hotels, and restaurants.

Wage rates set by councils vary between #100.81 for a 39-hour-week in

the button manufacturing industry to #120.90 in tailoring.

David Stark, who is a member of the aerated waters wages council,

explained how the councils operate. He said: ''The councils are made up

of equal numbers of employers' and workers' representatives plus three

independent members who are appointed by the Secretary of State for

Employment. Both sides put their case for a new wage rate to the

independent members then retire to separate rooms. ''Independent council

members can call either side back in and ask for further information.

The independent chair then puts their proposals to the full council and

it is voted on by both sides. This means that the new rate is set by the

independent members.''

At the recent aerated wages council of which David Stark is a member,

the council agreed an 11p hourly increase giving new hourly wage rates

of #3.08 -- #123.20 for a 40-hour week. He said: ''We are fortunate that

in this industry most of the large companies have trade union agreements

and the council rate is only a benchmark. But in many other industries

where there are no union agreements employers will exploit the absence

of the council.''

Michael Forsyth does not agree. In his letter he writes: ''Without the

councils, wage rates will adjust to suit local economic circumstances .

. . businesses themselves are best able to judge what they can afford

and what levels of pay are necessary to recruit and retail suitable

employees.'' The Government expects to guide the legislation through

Parliament within the next nine months and be in a position to abolish

the councils a few weeks later.

The Low Pay Network, which is campaigning to save the wages councils,

believes it is a contradiction for Mrs Gillian Shepherd, Employment

Minister, to have overall responsibility for this legislation when she

also has responsibility within the Cabinet for women's issues.

It points out that the industries covered by the councils ''tends to

employ significant proportions of women especially on a part-time

basis.''

Winston Churchill, in his capacity as President of the Board of Trade,

was responsible for introducing wages councils and had this to say on

the subject. ''. . . where you have what we call sweated trades, you

have no organisation, no parity of bargaining, the good employer is

undercut by the bad, and the bad undercut by the worst . . . where these

conditions prevail, you have not a condition of progress, but a

condition of progressive degeneration.''

But then Sir Winston always was a renegade.

GreenTulips · 03/09/2017 18:44

I've yet to meet a plumber in NMW - last one quotes over £3K for 4 days work - hardly on the bread line

Those who can't read - could learn - it's possible even in later life

Bricklayers can learn other trades so they are flexible and available for different work

I'm saying it's possible to retrain and improve your own life, not to just expect a pay rise

corythatwas · 03/09/2017 19:02

"Bricklayers can learn other trades so they are flexible and available for different work"

and in that case, who lays the bricks? some 16yo without training? it's skilled work, we need it

Ta1kinPeece · 03/09/2017 19:03

greentulips
CIS contract plumbers are 90% of the market - £150 / day tops

You try learning to read age 40 - first off admit that you never could Hmm

Brickies like being brickies - how insulting are you expecting them to not do what they love

These people do not expect a "pay rise"
just basic inflation since 2001 rather than the stasis they have faced

£150 a day in 2001 does not equal £150 a day in 2017 spending power

HelenaDove · 03/09/2017 19:04

YY Cory And there are enough problems with new builds as it is.

JadeT2 · 03/09/2017 19:08

I work in food and we pay our 16-21 year olds the same wage as they do the same job. The difference in wage has never made much sense to me. Also I had no idea that you had to stay in education until 18 in England - it's 16 in Wales.

GreenTulips · 03/09/2017 19:13

£150 a day is more than i earn and is not national min wage which is about 1/3 of of that

Bricklayers should be happy they are skilled workers - most trades start at £200 plumbers tilers plasters - it's not about being a good bricklayer it's about learning new skills and being flexible and indesposible - building trades regularly go through slumps and having new skills helps workers diversify

If you can lay bricks there's no reason you can plumb or plaster - or qualify in electrics and do both jobs in site -

Again if you aren't happy then retrain

WeirdAndPissedOff · 03/09/2017 19:29

Green tulips - we aren't even necessarily talking about paying people on the "bottom rung" more though - just paying people on the same rung the same wage regardless of age.

Dsis has been working the same job for 4 years - her previous job she left due to poor working conditions. She rents a house with two other adults and has done for a while, works all hours of the day and trains other staff - all for less than her co-workers get because she is younger than they are. Her previous employer used to employ 16-19 year olds on "apprenticeships" (doing the same work as the other staff for £2.95 an hour) and sack them when they required the next wage increase.
It's all very well and good saying "train/apply for a different job/pursue a different career" but that's not always realistic. Applicants for "unskilled" jobs can number in the 100s, she's already at her limit budget-wise so can't afford to pay for learning or drop her work hours to study, and she's exhausted by the end of her shift anyway. Plus a different employer may treat her worse and pay her no better - horror stories from her industry are 10 a penny.
This may be anecdotal, but I can well believe it's not an unusual story, and it's not justifiable.

Ta1kinPeece · 03/09/2017 19:39

If you can lay bricks there's no reason you can, not plumb or plaster - or qualify in electrics and do both jobs in site
you are kidding
I hope
have you heard of C&G and certs ?
nah, did not think so

the arrogance of paper pushers about tradesmen is just offensive

GreenTulips · 03/09/2017 21:49

Yes I said earlier about training and improving your skills base - college, night school, online etc

My uncle started at the bottom of the trade and build his business up to be a multimillionaire, all based on hard work. Every expansion he's in doing the work himself (and he's disabled due to an unfortunate accident) No reason why an able bodied person can't increase their own fortunes

I retained and did every coarse going that I thought I might need, I have up luxuries and sleep to do so, nobody was going to help me - I had to help myself (we've been there, rations, secondhand clothes, walked miles having no bus fare)

Anything is possible

Ta1kinPeece · 03/09/2017 21:58

course

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