More of a WWYD

[ThunderR0ad78]

Just posting here for opinions and traffic!!

DD is heading in to year 6 so we are on the verge of applying for her secondary school place this October.

She currently goes to a Catholic Primary school in Surrey and due to this qualifies for a place at our Catchment Catholic secondary school. The secondary school feeds 7 Catholic primary schools across Surrey - as a result it is not in our local area, it's about 10 miles away from where we live.

Lots of the children attending my DD's school go on to this secondary school, along with the children from 2 other neighbouring schools. The children are all required to catch 2 trains followed by a 10 min walk to school. The is no school bus despite lots of attempts to reinstate the service. However, like I said the station is packed with children all travelling together.

This school is incredibly high achieving, in the most recent published stats 97% of students received 5 A-C GCSE's - is ranked in top 100 across the UK.

On the flip side she also qualifies to go to our local secondary school based on our address. In contrast this school is ranked about 1500 nationally and approx 60% of students achieve 5 A-C grades. However, this school is a 15 minute cycle away and would obviously significantly reduce the amount of travelling and of course our safety concerns.

In terms of her friends, they will be split between the two schools possibly slightly more going to the local school - am not majorly bothered by this!

DD is my most academic child, a real grafter
and really tries her best - the Catholic school is renowned for its strictness but much of this will not apply to DD as she doesn't pose much challenge to any teachers, unlike her mother when she was at school!!!!

Another thing to consider is that my DS (two years younger) does not go to same catholic school, did not feel it was the right environment for him so unless I move him to a Catholic school in the next couple of years he will go to the local school....... so if I choose this school for DD then they will be together!

However, I am very happy to keep them at separate schools as I've definitely seen the benefit of choosing the right school for the child.....

So WWYD, which school would you opt for?

Ikeadyounot,

so you think its ok for children to behave like zoo animals throughout their school career, because the ones with the resources can learn at home instead.

That is what you are saying.

It sounds to me like you were one of those whose behaviour robbed others of their life chances.

But hey, you enjoyed yourself and had the personal resources to make sure you personally could compensate in your own life, so thats fine then.

OP, Ikeadyounot is exactly the sort of person I am advising you to avoid, by sending your child to a school with good discipline.

No, I think it's OK for children to have a little fun at school and that it's good for certain individuals to be able to challenge authority and rules, and to be freed from rule-following for rule-following's sake. It developed my personality, taught me loads of skills that have been super-useful in campaigning later in life. It wouldn't work for all children, but it was right for me.

Not everyone thinks that anally rule-oriented places offer the best for all children. What's right for a child with an overloaded need for boundaries and regulations isn't right for another child who needs to explore the world more creatively, with fewer boundaries. OP knows her child, and knows what is likely to be best for her. I'm just offering another perspective on so-called "anarchic" comprehensives, one that isn't often heard in wider society. It sounds as though you probably needed a highly bounded environment. That would not have worked for me, and I think I would actually have done less academically well in those situations.

As for "resources" at home, you have no idea about my life and you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. One of the reasons I did so well was actually because academic work was a real escape from an absolutely horrible home situation. I could lose myself in it, and forget my real life, which was pretty brutal and violent.

I went to an awful secondary school where a small percentage went on to do A levels. I did exceptionally well. It all depends on the child...if they want to succeed they will DESPITE the environment.

As for "resources" at home, you have no idea about my life and you don't know what the fuck you are talking about,

you plainly stated that you misbehaved throughout school, and learnt nothing in lessons, in fact, seemed to see school as a sort of tourist trip for poverty porn and did so brilliantly anyway, you clearly had huge resources available to you outside of school.

the children whose lesson times you sabotaged may not have been so fortunate.

Being "very very naughty" through school, as you put it, is not "having a little fun" and finding yourself, or what ever self absorbed label you want to put on it,

it is robbery from the education system, and from the children who were unfortunate enough to have to sit with you in lessons.

In an ideal world, you would be held accountable and made to compensate anyone affected.

you can dress it up and self justify all you want, it doesn't change what you did, not that you seem to be so proud of it.

if they want to succeed they will DESPITE the environment. if they have other times and places they can learn, but who WANTS to put their child into a school where learning is impossible in lessons, if there is an alternative?

My DD is going to year 9, and has come from a not brilliant primary, but one where she was consistently the top of her class and was proving academic. They didn't push her to achieve all she could have, but they did what they could while balancing her pastoral care.

She pushed to go to the local secondary with her friends. This was an improving comp in a council estate, but actually the one that I went to as a teen. I was aware it had issues, but as I came out with good results, I thought she would do the same- rise above the school, a bright child will do well anywhere.

On the contrary, by the time she got to the end of year 7, we pulled her out. Nothing overly bad- maybe one detention, no phone calls home, but instead a gradual creep down in the course of the year of expected grades (going from an expected A to a B+, for example). But more worrying was the introduction of a 'don't care' attitude, from a girl who was previously very conscientious.

We have now moved her to a school that is roughly an hour away, in a more middle class area (couldn't get a place in any local schools with good results). She has really struggled to find her place, and is finding it very hard to easily being one of the top in any given class, to being firmly on the 'average' path. But the difference in attitude is amazing- I haven't heard of any kids being rude to teachers, or excluded from school. It's just not even an option for them.

Anyway, long story short is- don't assume your DD will just rise above it. Just because we might have done it, the world is very different for teenagers now.

Well as someonewho travelled to seconday school as did most of my friends, I don't think the route you describe is so bad. I'd do the catholic one if she has the apittiude for it.

No, I REALLY didn't have resources outside of school. That is, in fact, the whole point of my post.

But hey, don't let that stop you from the claim that you know more about my own life as a random stranger than I do.

Judging by your posts here, and on other threads, you're someone with issues, so I'm just going to back away slowly now.

it's good for certain individuals to be able to challenge authority and rules,

have you any idea how utterly utterly utterly UTTERLY BORING these individuals are, and what a constant, relentless wasteful total drain on everyone's time and money and education.

If only parents would remove such individuals from schools completely, and let them just stay home and develop their creativity
and resilience by challenging rules and authority there.

Not many parents seem to want to home educate such children though, or even keep them home if they are ill, or even if the school is closed............. strange that.

No, I REALLY didn't have resources outside of school. That is, in fact, the whole point of my post.

you really really really did, you say yourself, you learnt nothing in lessons at all, but still learnt, therefore, learnt outside lessons, you report with great glee how you wasted time throughout your schooling, ( no doubt wasting other peoples equally) and you recount how much better off you were than your peers, and how attending school with "poor people" was socially informative.

No, that's an outrageous misinterpretation of what I said. I said that my family were poor, but not homeless. Some of the kids I went to school with really had nothing but a bin bag of clothes. I had friends whose parents were drug addicts, who literally lived in flea-infested houses with no furniture and no power half the time. I lived in a working class house, on a working class road, but at least we had a house.

I am now, by virtue of education, middle class. Attending a local comprehensive, from a working class background, gives me a form of knowledge that most of my middle class peers who grew up middle class don't have. That is not 'poverty tourism'. It is an awareness that comes from starting out as one class and ending up as an another, and it's undervalued in middle class jobs and cultures.

Right, I'm out of here. I actually have writing to do today, rather than arguing with an internet troll.

I had an hour and twenty minute commute to school. It was a great school and I did well academically. However, I could never stay for after school activities as the commute was dependent on a school bus dropping off to pick up a public bus at a specific time. I didn't have any one else locally who went to the same school so missed out on a social life with school friends too. It looks like this might not be the case for your child OP so I would strongly recommend going for the school that suits your child academically.

On a practical note though are there alternative ways of getting to school if there should be rail strikes, delays, leaves on the line and all that jazz? Do you have the flexibility to drop every thing and drive your DD if needs be?

Op, this is exactly what I am saying, you do not want your child at school with people who are allowed to behave like this, is you have other options.

The whole of the UK is full of thousands upon thousands of teenagers who think it is "a bit of fun" to be "very very naughty" throughout their school careers, and who feel they should be "developing individuality and creativity" through "challenging rules and authority" rather than paying attention to the trained, experienced and dedicated teachers, who are trying to teach them individuality and creativity!

I've been in many schools were children like this are in control. And in many schools where children like this are kept under control!

(and strangely enough these rebels supposedly "exploring the world more creatively" are not exactly noted for their creativity or individuality, either as teens, not later as adults!)

Anyway, it isn't related to whether the school is a comprehensive, a catholic school, a middle class school, or anything. It is related to the discipline policy and culture of the school. And it can become a self fullfilling prophesy. Parents who care about education want their children in schools with good behaviour, so the parents attracted to those schools are the ones who will back the school up in discipline.

I would prioritise good behaviour above anything. The Catholic school, you say, has a reputation for better behaviour - its a no brainer.

( and I promise i didn't invent Ikeadyounot just to prove my point!)

I know many cases of bright and/or MC children doing well at whatever school they go to but am thinking now they are somewhat historic....And even knowing this, its quite hard to put one's own child through it. Especially as they may be bullied for working hard.

I thought the post about moving a child after the first year when they saw the grades sliding was interesting because some friends didn't do that & the slide continued to disastrous GCSEs :(

As there are good points to both schools perhaps the OPs daughter should have the casting vote? I did this with my DC & over the summer DC decided to go to the school that was better for them (which happened to be my choice too :) )

I get what you are saying, IKEA!

When we are children we don't have the maturity to consider the impact of our behaviours on others, I mean not to any great length that would prevent a child talking to much in class or being cheeky to a teacher or challenging the rules etc.

I was a troublesome pupil in school but I was a very nice kid, honestly!!! Actually, I believe it was a small number of very poor primary school teachers who made me feel very worthless (I wasn't the brightest) and this was actually the route of why I misbehaved.

As a child I had a real problem with authority and challenged it all the time but like I said this was because a few teachers had misused their authority - still struggle in some situations in my adult life to be rule abiding (small things) which is why I decided to leave the teaching profession to find a more suitable career.......it was clear to me that I trained as a teacher to put a few wrongs to right from my own school life but unfortunately I just found some of the pettiness to hard to take e.g having to enforce things like the uniform and PE kit policy, wrong socks, lost tie - I mean, WHO CARES!! Detentions for small minor things, and the hierarchy of the teachers and all the associated bollocks - from my experience, the women were the worst - sorry thats a bit irrelevant!

I just didn't care enough about the small stuff and summarised that for me to continue teaching was like forcing a square peg in a round hole!

As a kid and also looking back, I feel lucky to have a very supportive mum - I watched her regularly challenge the teachers who bullied me, she would rightfully demand apologies, stormed into my classroom once mid lesson and dragged my horror of a teacher to one side and firmly put the witch in her place - I have no doubt that my mum was also the reason I challenged authority figures if I felt "wronged" even as I got a bit older, but as a child it can take a while to work out when you should do this and when you shouldn't - that comes with maturity so it's fair to say that I wasn't always right when I did this and no doubt at times I was just a pain in the arse to teach!

My mum however was just happy knowing that she was teaching me to stand up for myself - as far as she was concerned the rest would work itself out!

When I think of my DD, I've mentioned before that by nature she is very rule abiding and her personality lends to wanting to conform.

Unlike me when I was her age, she is a confident kid and enjoys learning but we do not all find school this rewarding!!!

As a child I would have struggled immensely in my DD's current school, fingers on mouths in assembly, virtual silence in lessons, the head told me they don't have a single behaviour problem in the entire school 🙄, the school is incredibly inflexible - which is why my son lasted 8 days before being promptly removed!

My son is far from naughty, he's sweet, kind but at this point and certainly when he was 5, he will push a few boundaries, bit chatty, less focussed. He currently gets his kicks and confidence playing his sports and school is just something he has to do......clearly a very different mindset, not wrong, just different!

All these things have contributed to asking for peoples thoughts on this situation, clearly there is no right or wrong answer!

I suppose I just resonant a little with these so called naughty kids, I was one of those kids, but genuinely I had a heart of gold and was a great friend, so I do find myself shrugging my shoulders a bit at the thought of a bit of disruptive behaviour in my daughters class.......but then again, my DD is not me and has had a very different upbringing to mine, so why have this issue in her classroom if you don't necessarily need to?? Also very importantly, unlike you IKEA who obviously managed a good balance, I didn't achieve my potential so this weighs heavily on my mind!

oh dear - back to square one!

Thanks again for everybody's input x

I did well at school despite the crappy behaviour of others. It was not a pleasant experience and I still remember the sweet relief when we were set into ability groups for o level and 90% of the trouble makers disappeared from my life.

I hate the "bright kids will manage whatever" trope. What if they don't? What about the not so bright kids who still want to learn and do well?

Sometimes I think schools should be able to select on behaviour. Then all the disruptive free spirits could keep each other entertained and the rest of them could get on with it.

Yes Copper - completely agree.
The type of school e.g. Religious denomination etc is irrelevant!

You seem to speak from experience and approach this matter with a very black and white approach and perhaps this is what I should do!

We decided last night that we will apply to the "better school" as first choice - DD is happy about this and thinks it's best for her too because she is told that they have a really good hockey team and also because she wants to get a A* in maths!

You can't argue with that! Thanks again x

thunder - you sound like a wonderful Mum and I'm sure you'll make the right choice. The fact that you're so sensitive to the differences between you, your DD and your DS speaks volumes. It sounds as though your gut says the Catholic school might be better in this case, and from what you've said about her character, that might be a wise decision! Plus, because you're intensely aware of the difference between classes due to your own experience, I'm sure you'll make sure your daughter gets that broader experience (from what you've said, the class mix of the two schools isn't entirely dissimilar anyway)!

Your account of being at school had me laughing out loud! Yes, I was much the same, I think! I thrived, though, BECAUSE I had teachers like you who didn't care for rules of uniform etc. who saw me as a person and who tried to help me however they could (often that meant turning a blind eye to the small stuff). Though I'm guessing we are fairly close in age, so I would have been at school at around the same time as you and not one of your pupils, on behalf of all the unruly kids you did teach and support before you left, thank you! Often teachers like that are made to feel like they aren't being professional or that they aren't suited to the career, but actually, for kids like me, a focus on the academic and personal over the rules was more than just an inspiration - it created the space I desperately needed not just to develop intellectually, but to create an identity in which I felt comfortable and happy in a way I couldn't be anywhere else. I'm sure you gave this to many children in your teaching career, even though it was against the grain of the culture of your school. Hope you are happier and in an easier environment now for your own sake, though!

Oops, x-posted!

Ikea - thank you!

I think we are similar in the fact that we are perhaps more sympathetic to the reasons why children "play up" at school - I certainly had issues and my defiance was partly about me working these out! It most certainly wasn't about me deliberately hindering the educational attainment of my peers - although as an adult I can see how this happens! I too encountered a few very nice teachers in secondary and again these were the ones who took the rules much less seriously! I have even tried to find one of them on social media to show my appreciation!

I looked for the WITCH too - with no luck 😬

From Coppers post I pick up that these days there is a much more deliberate approach to rule breaking and breaking rules just for the sake of it and perhaps these days some schools are just not equipped to deal with this!

Obviously this wasn't my experience so will always look at this differently! x