I'd suggesting counselling shifting responsibility to the victim?

[shivermytimbers]

This is just a thought so all and any opinions welcome!
It occurred to me that when someone has been through trauma that has been inflicted upon them by someone else (DV, rape, abuse...) they are often recommended to seek help from counselling to deal with this.
I understand that this can be very helpful and have no problem with people using counselling services to cope during very difficult times.
However...
If the person doesn't want to go for counselling or can't go due to e.g. childcare commitments, work, finances... but still feels affected by what has happened to them, does it give them an unnecessary sense of personable responsibility for a situation that they didn't create thereby shifting blame from perpetrator to victim?
Any thoughts?

As far as DV goes, sometimes you've told someone until you're blue in the face that they need to get the hell out but they don't hear you, and you're hoping that they'll hear the message if a 'professional' says it.

This is the situation my DH and I are in now with our friends. The wife is a BFF of mine and she is in real danger of her H killing her and she simply does not see it. She knows he's abusive, but she doesn't realize that he's also unbalanced and dangerous. I've been telling her this for quite some time but she thinks she can 'handle him' and he won't escalate. He already IS escalating! Her H (a BFF of my DH) has kept his worst behaviour behind closed doors and away from my DH, but his facade 'cracked' last week and DH has finally seen him for what he is and has now joined his voice with mine. She's not hearing us so we're both now urging her to see a counselor who we know will tell her to GTFO.

Counseling often gives victims the tools and/or wisdom they need to recognize and get out of the situation. Sometimes it's just needed validation that the DV is NOT their fault in any way and that they are not 'responsible for breaking up the family', the abuser is.

I think the two things are totally separate.

1. blame for someone inflicting something on you - that clearly lies with the perpetrator.

1. getting help to cope with the results of that. either you want to get help or you don't, or can't. if you cant afford it or don't have the time, that is not your fault, but the world can't pretend counselling doesn't exist can it?

1. If you can get counselling but choose not to, and don't feel better, then that is kind of your fault, isn't it, because it is a decision not to get help that you have made.

Many people go through trauma. Many people come out the other side reasonably fine or even better for it. Others never quite recover. And a lot grid group of people use it as an excuse not to correct behaviour. If your problems stem from your trauma directly you can't really beheld responsible, you can work as hard as you like but sometimes you just can't get better. But if you find yourself bringing up your trauma as an excuse each time you do something wrong and make no effort to carry on with your life as best you can ( whether that involves counselling or not) then it's not the trauma that is the cause.

I would certainly agree with Sparrowhawk

Kimmy, I would strongly disagree with your final point. There is an assumption within it that counselling will make you feel better, that it is assured, which I don't think is true.

In 1999, two ten year old girls were abducted and held hostage for almost a week, repeatedly raped and sexually assaulted before a chance visit from the police meant they were saved. Both girls attended counselling: interviews with the girls several years later when both were young women saw them both stating that they found the counselling unhelpful and distressing. One of the girls, who was made to continue with it by her (well meaning) father, found it so distressing that she broke her friendship with the other girl.

Their story perhaps is unique but I don't think the intricate detail is as important as the overall gist: that some people just don't find talking therapies effective or helpful. Furthermore, it can take a long time to work things out and process: the limitations to counselling is obviously that you have (usually) an hour or two hours or however long and then whatever isn't covered has to be transferred to the next session. Minds don't work like that in neat little one-hour blocks.

I do think there is something a bit dismissive and abrupt about "see a counsellor" and it is really a way of telling people to be quiet.

I also strongly dislike the much trotted out line that if counselling didn't help somebody, they didn't "work" at it, as if counselling is an MLM process with the counsellor the upline. Thinking about it further, there are a few similarities.

Re the lady with BPD - counselling in itself will not "cure" somebody of this condition.

Also, Across, if I am not very wrong, no good counsellor would be ordering your friend to do anything. I have a friend in a similar situation: put bluntly it is her life, her decision, her relationship.

I have found whilst counselling sheds light, it doesn't empower someone to go on and make the changes they need to become the person they want to be.

Counselling ime is very much about both - looking at and understanding the past and thinking about how to move forward in the most healthy and productive way.

You can't have one without the other imo, you have to understand and acknowledge your past in order to make realistic and healthy choices for your future.

Otherwise you can get trapped in a cycle of acting and reacting in certain ways without understanding why you are doing things that particular way... nor that you might be able to do things differently [and not be held captive to attitudes and beliefs within your family of origin for example].

The difficulty is that so much of what we do is subconciously motivated... therefore we just 'believe' that it is the way we and the world works and cannot be altered. Counselling enables you to view the world through a different lens and discover strengths and resilience that you never knew you had... and that for me is invaluable.

Afaik not to do with abuse or assault, but someone I know has refused all their lives to seek MH support for depression/anxiety because they are coping fine. In this case, "coping" basically means that family members have to prop them up and put up with verbal abuse when the stress gets too much for them. Several of these family members now have MH issues of their own and/or suffer from high blood pressure. They were never consulted about this arrangement.

Of course there is no knowing whether counselling would have helped. Perhaps it would have been rotten. Perhaps it would habe made things worse. Nobody will ever know, because it was assumed that the sufferer should not have to go through the shame- and the concomitant assumption that the family would pick up the slack was never spoken out loud.

To return to the physical health analogy- if an assault broke my leg, would I be right not going for physio if the result was that dh had to carry me around and eventually wrecked his back doing so?

Some counselling/therapy looks to the future rather than the past. Another family member suffering from the same issues (though with added known trauma) has worked with CBT and is gradually getting better and better at not taking out their stress on other people.

Haven't read all the replies yet (sorry) but this resonates with me. Am seeking to separate from my emotionally abusive H. I've been told by DV professionals that there will be great damage done if I stay. However I had a conversation with some (very lovely) friends yesterday and was told how we both 'have to' get professional help and counselling to help with the healing process. And I sat there and thought actually I don't 'have' to do anything thank you very much. I may do in the future and I'm sure it would be wise...but don't put ANY responsibility on me to 'fix ' this!

Normally I'd agree speck but my friend is in imminent danger. Her H has multiple firearms in their home and is already threatening her with them by sitting and spinning the cylinder or clicking the hammer on an empty chamber whilst glaring at her. In this case I'd think any counselor would 'strongly encourage' i.e. 'tell' her to get out. Assuming BFF was honest with the counselor, of course.

And yes, the police have been called on him, more than once and by more than one person. But when they get there he appears very reasonable and puzzled as to why they're there and she denies there's 'any problem'. Absent signs of physical violence there is nothing the police can do unless/until she is willing to file a complaint.

It's a nasty, vicious cycle of abuse and brainwashing. Hopefully a counselor can help her break that cycle.

OP I kind of agree.

I had a nasty experience when I was younger that has led to me feeling very anxious in certain situations. I have beem told to "just get counselling". I don't want to. I don' t find it productive to talk about that experience.

If we are making analogies with physical injuries, I think acute physical injuries are the wrong comparator. It is more like, to me, having lost a couple of fingers. Yeah, I can do physio and learn little tricks to make life easier. But essentially, the scars aren't going away and that is not my fault. I try hard not to let this impact on others but it is part of who I am, like a minor physical disability. I don't expect others to put themselves out for me but I do expect the basic respect of people not blaming me.

And if it is sexual trauma we are talking about, and a woman, that is particularly tricky becauss one always risks being disbelieved or having it minimised.

Ancient thanks for biting your experience sounds horrendous and certainly shows how it's not desirable for others to have to deal with such appalling fall out! I hope the situation is improving for everyone involved

linman yours is just the scenario I was thinking of. I'm so sorry that you're going through this and think you are absolutely justified in doing it your own way! Good luck

Cory that's a dreadful situation. Again I can certainly see why that person needs to go outside their immediate circle for help

Johnny I'm so sorry you've had that experience. You are quite entitled to deal with it in your own way! We're beginning to learn to appreciate the beauty of people with physical disabilities, maybe we need to think about doing the same for people with emotional scars too.

It's a really complex issue obviously and I'm very appreciative for the responses. The question was just an extension of my idle thoughts but I'm beginning to have a better understanding of how important high quality counselling is and also the respect that is due to people who are handling things brilliantly in their own way.

Johnny I left your flowers off apologies

I have found whilst counselling sheds light, it doesn't empower someone to go on and make the changes they need to become the person they want to be.

CBT certainly does. If you don't put the work in, you won't get better. It's not a magical cure; you do actually have to put some effort in.

When I was in therapy following abusive ex and narcissistic family, going from Freedom Programme to therapist to group therapy, burning diesel and tyre rubber, I'd get really cross that it me making all the effort to fix this and they all get to go on with their revolting little lives, scot free and oblivious

The rage passes, but yes, the victim becomes responsible for saving themselves even though perhaps they've been at war for decades

Was that quite an empowering experience then Hissy?
My initial concerns were that those who had already suffered felt like they were being forced into something else, that by all accounts sounds incredibly difficult to go through.
You sound like it really helped you to take control of your life though. Good for you!

Across I was just re-reading your response and agree that some intervention seems essential to keep your friend safe but the whole attitude of police etc that nothing can be done until your friend makes a complaint seems madness - and another way of heaping responsibility onto the victim for their misfortune

Not sure why you thanked others but ignored every contribution I made to you thread, OP.

I thought you might be interested in the opinion of an abuse survivor who has benefited from counselling, but clearly not.

@ MrsASoprano.

I read your post after I'd agreed with Starling but I agreed with your post too.

I do think there is something a bit dismissive and abrupt about "see a counsellor" and it is really a way of telling people to be quiet

I came in to say just that. Some people seem to think that counselling is a panacea and that if you have experienced trauma above some arbitrary level, you're no longer welcome to share any of that generally in conversation - only a paid counsellor can be expected to listen. I hate it. For people like me who experienced complex childhood trauma one of the things I really missed out on is the feeling of being in tune with other people, of having a connection human to human. Counsellors try but you're always aware that they have to be nice to you and try and see things from your side. How much more therapeutic it is when a normal person bears witness and gets angry on your behalf.

I have done therapy and I did try but all she did was provide the intellectual insight into my experiences that would have been useful say 20 years ago when it was all still happening. It didn't feel like there was much healing going on.

I think it entirely depends on firstly who you are seeing and secondly are you getting the right type of therapy
I would never dismiss something that has helped many people

It's incredibly complex.

Someone might lose a couple of fingers and really need the rehabilitation that goes with it. Some people might be fine with it and get on with life.

Everyone is projecting a little on here. Including myself.
But I would say I have had one bad and one very good therapist. And when I found the good one it was a lightbulb moment.

Having an intellectual insight into your own experiences is one thing. If that issue has become a problem in later life with destructive patterns repeating themselves then helping to understand and stop those patterns is an invaluable tool.

It's a bit like someone saying "I grew up with nothing to my name and I did ok" and someone else in the exact same position really struggling with life.
We are all different and we can all experience situations that are similar in very different ways.

There is normally a very long wait for counselling and most victims will wait a long time before seeking any kind of help.
Sometimes your allocated sessions aren't enough and then you have to go to the back of the cue again

Some clients may have put in a great deal of work but still find CBT isn't a success. Sometimes a different therapist, or a different approach, will be successful, but not always. Unfortunately there are many reasons why counselling doesn't work if the combination of client/therapist/method isn't as good as it could be. This isn't anyone's fault and many do try a number of therapists and therapy types, over the years, before stumbling upon something which finally helps. Others never find the right help, which is very sad. Unfortunately it does happen in some cases (particularly with some of the less experienced CBT counsellors IMHO) that a therapist implies to the client that they haven't worked hard enough, aren't ready to change, etc. Yet the same client finds a different CBT therapist way more helpful.

That's where I disagree, I think, Worried, because it isn't just about who you see or the type of therapy.

Sometimes, talking therapy just isn't the answer. I think if we were more upfront about this, as in "it's worth giving it a shot but no worries if it isn't helping" rather than "you need counselling / I have had counselling / well clearly you didn't see the right person / weren't ready / didn't click your heels three times."

A thread on here recently from a Mumsnetter made me think of this. The lady had been on holiday when her young son fell from a wall and although he was okay, the whole event left her shocked, guilty and traumatised. Her initial thread was supportive and kind. When she posted a week or so later trying to explore her feelings many posters were abrupt and rude, adopting an accusatory you have posted about this before, haven't you? and telling her to "get counselling." The lady (IM entirely unprofessional O) did not need counselling, just to process her shock.

Also, something I strongly bear in mind - counsellors often become counsellors because they had counselling themselves, and this can mean they are not unbiased, if you like.

shiver I agree about the police to an extent. Where I live the victim does NOT have to cooperate but if there are physical signs of abuse (bruises, wounds, red marks, etc), the police must arrest and the DA can prosecute without the victim's cooperation and even if the victim says that their abuser is innocent. But if there are no signs of abuse and the victim says 'Oh no, everything is fine', what can the police do? They have no proof and an uncooperative victim.

I don't know if I'd say that's making the victim 'responsible' in the way I think you mean it. Many of them are too traumatized and frightened of their abuser to be rational in their decision-making. The problem is that they are adults, we live in a free society, and no one has the right to deprive them of the ability to make their own decisions, even if we think they are wrong or in danger.

It's a bit of a balance between respecting a person's self-determination and depriving them of that right for their own protection.

I certainly don't 'blame' my friend for staying nor do I think she is 'responsible' for her situation. I was in an abusive marriage so I understand what makes a victim stay. But if the worst happens because she didn't leave, there will be some anger at her mixed with my sorrow.

Counseling worked miracles for me, more than once. But it takes brutal honesty with yourself, hard work, and the right counselor.