Not an AIBU - but does anyone work in car insurance/insurance law and can help?

[joecormac]

I don't have all the information to hand, as this is about DSIS (who is in a terrible state and can't quite express herself at moment).

She and DBIL have had a really testing few years. We lost our Mum in 2013 and by 2014/5 DSIS was in counselling to help her deal with her grief and had been on medication since this time.

She has a stressful job and has had to deal with redundancies and now does the of three people whilst working with a skeleton staff. Her boss is supportive but can't do anything to help - there is no more money for staff. DSIS does all child care at each end of the day as DBIL has a long commute.

On top of all this they began to notice cracks in the walls of their home. It transpired that the front of their house was subsiding forwards, whilst the party wall with next door was dragging off to the left. After a couple of years living in terrible conditions, wrangling with the insurance company, the insurance paid out in 2016. The four of them moved in with us for a month, then into rented accommodation for six months, then back in with us for a month. As the builders took walls down other problems were found (woodworm etc). Every night we had the children whilst they did as much work at the house as possible to do the work that the insurance didn't cover. They were completely exhausted and we helped out as much as possible - either having the kids or depositing all our kids with friends so we join them at what became a pretty bleak building site. Whilst they were in such a mess it made sense to re-mortgage to put in an attic conversion and new kitchen so it could all be done at once and they don't plan on every moving again.

So that's the back ground. Sometime during 2016 DSIS was caught by speeding cameras twice within a few days, for the first time in 20 years driving. We think that she probably just had too much on her mind trying to project manage the house/ get home for kids/ juggle work. She paid the fines and was given 2 x 3 points (I don't drive myself and my lack of knowledge on all things car related isn't helping).

2017 was looking up until their car died and they had to buy a new one. They took out new insurance with Admiral and must have been asked the question "Do you have any points?" She answered no - having completely forgotten about the two letters she received about the speeding.

They go camping on holiday last week and have a bump. They ring the insurance company, some sort of search is carried out and the insurance company quite rightly says that she gave them the wrong information and invalidates the insurance.

DSIS is mortified and completely understands that the insurance is invalid and won't pay out. What has really knocked her is that her name is now on some sort of blacklist. She can't get car insurance from any other normal provider - it's sort of like having bad credit. She can only get insurance form small specialist brokers and her premiums have gone up threefold.

Money was tight anyway and I think that this has pushed her over the edge. She has spoken to the Financial Services ombudsman a couple of times - one advisor said there is nothing to be done, she's been fraudulent, and that this will affect all her different types of insurances going forward for ever. Another said that something could be done but was a bit vague. CAB was useless.

Can anyone give me any advice? I was thinking if we could get a letter from her doctor detailing her anxiety and meds, a letter from Macmillan who gave her counselling after Mum died, photos of the house plus all the insurance and building correspondence and how long the rebuild took and a letter from her boss detailing the stress at work that there must be a way to get her off this insurance black list.

Thanks

Surely all that stress will make her an even higher risk ?
If the stress causes her to be inattentive and to forget things and potentially have bumps...

Sorry to say but I don't think any insurance company will care about any of that. It's quite clear cut that she's in the wrong so I don't think they woulf consider any mitigating circumstances. At least someone will still insure her. I dont think 3 times the price sounds that bad in all honesty.

At the crooks of it she lied, now she has to pay for the consequence of that. I was hit by a driver who then changed there sorry insurance don't care put it down as 50/50 still waiting on court a year later my insurance cost more than 3 times more. Does anyone give a shit - no

*their story

I don't think that it will change anyone's minds however I am not someone who knows about law.
To insurance companies she is just a policy number who lied to get cheaper insurance (regardless of that being the truth or not)

Sorry but of course her insurance will increase. I'm sure everyone that's caught being dishonest has an excuse

No sorry they won't care about any of that. She failed to disclose a material fact, and not just a little one. 6 points could have led to some insurers not insuring her at all. If she had disclosed the points before the incident then her premium would have been huge anyway. Can BIL go as the main driver and SIL as the second driver? Does that make a difference to the premiums?

The 6 points would have bumped her premiums right up anyway so I would say she just has to take the hit.

I do know insurance law - the threshold isn't fraud (which is hard to prove), it is enough that she was reckless in completing the questions and therefore the insurance is invalidated.

She will need to use a specialist broker for all insurances going forward (if she buys home insurance or travel insurance etc there is a standard question about whether you have had insurance invalidated and saying yes means you can't get a quote through normal websites etc)

I have some limited experience with this. It sounds like they voided the policy due to her not being truthful at application stage and therefore it would have been treated as fraud which is why she's now been put on a list. Insurance companies share this data and claims data. What she needs to try and prove is that it wasn't deliberate. I suggest she first of all complains to the insurer and provides evidence to back up why it wasn't a deliberate omission. If she doesn't get any joy she can then go to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

I think you are a lovely sister. I'm sorry you've had such a poor time, all of you.

I don't know what's to be done, but I just wanted to say that you sound like a brill sis.

If you've been declined cover or had cover removed then it's incredibly difficult to get any insurance - providers will give car cover because it's a mandatory insurance but yes it'll come at a price.

She could appeal to Admiral - they can be very strict on background checks but talking to them sometimes it better because you can explain to an actual person who may have some discretion. What an awful time she's having.

Thanks all - will try FOS.

I'm not sure what tackling the Ombudsman would achieve?

It doesn't sound like the insurance company have done anything untoward.

It's standard for them to keep a record of whether a customer has had insurance cancelled, declined or voided in the past.

I completely understand why you're hoping there's something that can be done but I can't think why the insurers would want to do anything.

The reason insurers take it so seriously is that they can still end up having to cover 3rd party claims against a policy they would never have sold if they'd known the truth.

The processes they have in place are for exactly these circumstances: the policy holder has lied to them when obtaining a policy.

You see your sister as the victim but the insurer is the one who's been wronged here.

I think it's very unlikely that any insurer or broker will accept that it was a genuine error. I don't doubt that she has experienced some very difficult and trying times of late but she hasn't forgotten one speeding conviction, she's forgotten two separate convictions. We're not talking about a situation where a letter arrives, you bin it and move on. Follow up action is needed and even under stressful conditions, it's difficult to accept that you'd forget receiving the letter, reacting emotionally to a driving conviction and then taking the action of paying the fine. Twice.

Additionally, driving history is a crucial component of a motor insurance proposal and I don't think you can claim an accidental non-disclosure really. If you complete the proposal online, the question is in front of you in black and white and the onus is on you to understand the question and answer it accurately. If it's done over the phone they ask the question clearly and almost always follow up "do you have any driving convictions?" with "do you have any pending convictions?" which effectively gives you two bites at the cherry. If you mis-heard or misunderstood the first question, the second really ought to jog your memory.

I don't say any of this with the intention of sticking the boot in so to speak. It's an awful situation for her and I wish a had a better answer for you but I think it's better to explain why insurers will take the view that they have so far and why the FCA/Ombudsman may find it difficult to assist than to give you false hope of a more favourable outcome.

Can BIL go as the main driver and SIL as the second driver? Does that make a difference to the premiums?

This is known as "policy fronting" and it's fraudulent. Except if BIL is in fact the main user of the car obviously but if that were the case I expect that the insurance would have been arranged this way in the first place.

Thanks Somerford - I appreciate your advice and your explanation. I think I'm just in 'big sister' mode, and knowing she isn't dishonest was hoping it worked like criminal law (i.e. lack of mens rea).

Oh well. I'll go round tomorrow and take her for a walk

Thanks again

"They ring the insurance company, some sort of search is carried out and the insurance company quite rightly says that she gave them the wrong information and invalidates the insurance."

Seems dickish that insurance companies don't bother to do those checks when the policy is taken out. No, they're happy to collect their premium and only when a claim is made they find reasons to not pay out.

/rant

Not a legal expert at all, but I fear that unless Admiral can be persuaded to reverse the policy invalidation/cancellation this is going to stay with DSIS for life, or at least until the government changes the law. There's no legal or customary time period like there is with convictions and claims; the comparison sites and many insurers ask "Have you or any of the drivers ever had insurance declined, cancelled or special terms imposed?"

('Routine' things like the policy ending because the car is written off, the policyholder not the company cancelling, or not being given a quote do not count for that question, it's for things like OP's DSIS's situation.)

You are a good person and a wonderful sister, OP. You've done a tremendous amount for your DSis already and the fact that you are here at 10pm on a Friday night, on the eve of a bank holiday weekend, seeking advice for her speaks volumes. She is lucky to have you.