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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not understand what being trans would feel like

24 replies

ringle · 17/08/2017 23:06

I am a long term poster. I am aware there are threads on this that get tetchy, but I haven't read them.
I have one trans friend -we have known each other 10 years.

The question I can't ask but want to is "why do/did you want this? What did you feel like before?

The transition has caused my friend, her kids and her ex no end of grief. Also, while she has lots of good platonic friends, she's lonely.

So honestly I'm just curious about what's like/has been like to be her.
Am interested if anyone can describe their experience.

OP posts:
IAmEatingACurry · 17/08/2017 23:40

Placemarking and I might be back later.

Fruitcocktail6 · 17/08/2017 23:46

I have no idea either. I don't tend to spend time thinking about my gender identity, I just am who I am, so I guess for trans people it's the feeling of not being who you are. If that makes sense. But I don't know what that feels like.

weeblueberry · 17/08/2017 23:48

Our best friend was trans. Sadly he died a few weeks ago but we had the sort of relationship where I could ask this sort of question.

His response was that he never felt like he was truly himself while he was a woman. He was acting and playing a part. Pretending through his whole life. Now he didn't have children or a partner but said that once he realised and began the transition it was as though a huge weight was off his shoulders. Suddenly he was himself. The person he'd always known he was deep down. He said it hugely contributed to the other mental health issues he had and often wondered whether they'd have been so significant if he'd transitioned earlier in his life.

FerretsAreFeminists · 17/08/2017 23:50

Depends on what you mean by trans.

dinosaursandtea · 17/08/2017 23:56

There are some really good books, blog posts and videos about it. But yeah - I feel the same when I talk to my trans friends. Impressed by their courage but no idea what it feels like.

IAmEatingACurry · 18/08/2017 00:26

The truth is is that it's not an easy thing to explain.

It's not so much that I identify with certain feminine traits, it's more like I've always felt that I'm not really me. When I look in a mirror or see photos of myself I know logically that it is me but it doesn't feel like I'm looking at me if that makes sense. I can see a body and I can see movement in the mirror but in my head I'm supposed to look like someone else and be someone else. I just feel so detached from that person staring back at me.

To me it's like suffering from anorexia except that instead of thinking I'm too fat and being desperate to fix myself by starving myself, I hate what sex I and feel like I have to change it somehow...like I have to fix it. I did suffer from anorexia in my teens and then later on kind of went the opposite way to that and started overexercising and taking steroids. So for me I would definitely say it is all linked into body dysmorphia.

I do know that presenting in a feminine way and being known as 'she' and by my feminine name does help with that feeling of distress and helplessness and helps reduce the want to have to fix myself or hurt myself even further.

I also know that having people describe me as a woman doesn't exactly help because it just hits home that that is not and never will be possible. I know that might seem odd and contradict what I just said but it's much better for me to be known by feminine pronouns but also at the same time accepting that I'm a transwoman and not a woman.

DCFlemingreportingforduty · 18/08/2017 00:39

Thank you for sharing that, curry. Flowers

Datun · 18/08/2017 00:58

curry, I ask you something?

This may sound odd, so I hope I can articulate it.

This feeling of not being you when you look in the mirror. Is it just a feeling of not wanting to be male, or is it actively wanting to be female?

Odd question, I know. Because it's either one or the other.

But if, there were, say, four or five sexes, would any one of the others do? Or would it have to be the female one?

ChristmasFluff · 18/08/2017 01:28

I cannot answer the question, as I am not transitioning. However, a dear friend has done so. I had lost contact with her, and so until we reconnected, in my head she had been 'he'. Her first comment on us reconnecting was, 'you didn't know? I thought it was obvious'. She thought that it had been obvious that her male persona was not her. I had never seen that. To be honest, I still don't. But she is she now. And who am I to tell her who she is? Not a Mumsnetter, apparently. The anti-trans feeling on Mumsnet is horrible.

toomuchtooold · 18/08/2017 07:19

The anti-trans feeling on Mumsnet is horrible.

There's a lot of horrible stuff said about trans people on MN but there's also a lot of genuine concern that when laws are changed to make things easier for transpeople, it can erode a lot of the legal protections for women. Safe spaces and so on - not so much an issue with transpeople using them, but with men using them and claiming to be transpeople.

Sorry I don't want to derail the thread, but I think the point is important. A lot of the time on here if you say that you're worried about how equal pay legislation will work if any bloke can start calling himself Mary and then he counts as a woman in the statistics then you get written off as transphobic. And that's mince. We need to find a way of allowing transpeople to live in peace and freedom without taking rights off of other people in order to do that.

In answer to the original question, I had a close friend at uni who was transcurious, let's say, and has now started to transition. She just said she felt awkward and weird in a male body. But what always disturbed me a bit was that she would describe the female body she wanted and it was like supermodel Barbie proportions. And it's not like that for most of us, is it? We have a diversity of body shapes, few of which for the societal ideal. I'd go so far as to say that mild body dysmorphia is a part of the experience of being female in the late 20th/early 21st century. I sometimes wondered if my friend would have been content to look in the mirror each morning at an averagely lumpy female body and think "oh well, you'll do". I know not all transpeople are like that. But I do wonder how much there is an overlap with other forms of body dysmorphia.

ringle · 18/08/2017 08:15

Thanks, glad I posted. Lots to think about.....

OP posts:
velourvoyageur · 18/08/2017 08:16

Curry Flowers thanks for your explanation

Datun · 18/08/2017 08:22

toomuchtooold

Your friend might have been autogynephilic. And although, now, autogynephilia is included under the trans umbrella, the motivation is different.

It's this that tends to polarise people over the trans issue.

Someone like curry above just want to get on with it, because everything feels so wrong and she feel so much more at peace with herself presenting as female. Certainly online, and I imagine in real life, she doesn't come across as anything other than genuine and non threatening.

Autogynephiles come from a different place.

Opinion and feelings often vary widely, depending upon what sort of transwoman one knows. That's how many disagreements arise and why it gets incredibly heated.

If all transwomen were like curry, I don't think there would be any near as much concern, indeed, there never has been.

Autogynephiles are completely different, and certainly not the sort of people I want in my bathroom.

So if a person is acquainted with, or related to someone like curry, they find that the point of view transphobic. Understandably.

If they know someone who is, or have been married to, an autogynephile, they instantly get it.

Trills · 18/08/2017 08:43

I suspect it's a bit like having a toothache.
I can't "feel" the inside of my teeth unless they hurt.
If they had never hurt, I might assume that there is no such thing as "feeling the inside of your teeth".

My gender identity has never felt like anything - but maybe that's because it has never hurt or felt wrong. Maybe "feeling fine" feels like nothing.

If people tell me it is a thing, I have the choice to say
I have never felt that, but I believe you
or to say
I have never felt that, therefore you must be lying or deluded

Trills · 18/08/2017 08:44

Thank you for sharing with us Curry

toomuchtooold · 18/08/2017 09:18

I don't know Datun. I suspect my friend was just a bit vain.

It's this that tends to polarise people over the trans issue.

Is it? I wouldn't have a problem with it in principle - people can get off how they want. I'm assuming the issue is with autogynephiles gaining access to women only spaces and then perving on women there? I'm a bisexual woman, and I can go into women's spaces and manage not to stare at the naked ladies because I am not a sex pest. Why should it be any different for autogynephiles? And yet, I suspect it is different.

Ev1lEdna · 18/08/2017 09:37

@Iameatingacurry I have found all your posts here and on the Feminist Chat board very interesting and informative. I'm grateful to you and another poster (Fish something) who has a child who wants to transition for the insight you provide.

Datun · 18/08/2017 09:43

And yet, I suspect it is different.

Yes it is different. Part of autogynephilia (AGP) is the sexual thrill of people reacting to you as a woman. So, a woman's mere acceptance of that person in their bathroom, could be arousing. It's also exciting to coerce people into explicitly accepting your womanhood. (Pronouns, 'girl talk')

It's not so much that they are predators first and foremost. As in our usual idea of predation (although, obviously some are).

It's about everything to do with womanhood being a sexual thrill. It can get bizarre, and extend to biological functions such as menstuation, breastfeeding, pregnancy, etc.

An earnest and empathetic discussion over your period cramps, will actually be a turn on.

Women often do notice that there is something off about someone with AGP. There is zero real affinity with womanhood. And it becomes clear that there's an unhealthy interest in intimate issues.

But it's not always immediately obvious and you end up realising you have been the unwitting, and unconsenting participant in someone else's fantasy/fetish.

Funnily enough your point about bisexual women is often used to counter women's objections. Along the lines of "well bisexual women and lesbians share your spaces, so you are already in a position where someone might be fancying you".

Unsurprisingly, I have never yet seen a woman, feminist or otherwise, agree with that viewpoint!

Bisexual women and lesbians are still women. And they are not in the cohort who present a problem.

And it's a killer for genuine transsexuals, who are usually not attracted to women, in the first place (unlike AGP individuals). Gender dysmorphia is their motivation, not sexual kicks.

They tend to have far more understanding of, and affinity with, women, on a genuine level. Including in the bathroom issue, etc.

Ev1lEdna · 18/08/2017 09:44

If all transwomen were like curry, I don't think there would be any near as much concern, indeed, there never has been.

I agree with this and I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about the anti-trans feelings on MN. Yes, I agree some posters are unpleasant and there is no need to misuse pronouns or be dismissive but there are genuine concerns about erasure of language, safe spaces, transitioning children, women's sports, bursaries etc. which need to be explored without nastiness (on either side) and without shutting down women's voices and uneasiness with self-identification.

I think a thread like this is positive and helps develop understanding and empathy.

Datun · 18/08/2017 09:56

Ev1lEdna

There is another thread at the moment, on FWR, where someone is earnestly wishing the T for transgender could be subdivided.

Partly because women transition for different reasons to men, and it would highlight the reasons. Which would help women, I believe.

But also because it would stop men with AGP driving the issue. Desperately trying to get into women's bathrooms, is not a good look. Women aren't fools.

Having gender dysphoria and being mightily relieved that you can navigate life as a woman, simply doesn't have the same colour. Or engender the same unease in women.

But I don't imagine that the former group is going to allow a distinction, any time soon.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 18/08/2017 09:56

Curry
Thank you for sharing. Flowers

I would also agree with Ev1lEdna that women should be able to express concerns about the implications for women of the demands of some transactivists without being shot down in flames.

FooFighter99 · 18/08/2017 10:00

I absolutely love @Trills' analogy - it makes perfect sense.

I don't understand how Trans people feel because I myself am not Trans. But that doesn't invalidate the way they feel.

I confess I am completely ignorant of Trans issues because I don't know anyone who is Trans. But I am grateful for this thread and its informative posts. Please keep them coming Smile

Datun · 18/08/2017 10:14

I can't imagine anyone denying that trans people feel the way they feel.

It's irrefutable.

The disagreement, for me, arises when they say they not only feel like a woman, they are a woman. That their brain determines their sex, and their penis is a female organ. And that lesbians are transphobic for not considering them as sexual partners.

When I first heard that, I thought oh, come on, you can't be serious. 'Male lesbians' have been trying to get lesbians to sleep with them since forever. It's nothing new.

I honestly thought it wouldn't be taken seriously. But it is. Transactivists absolutely make this assertion, with a straight face. And get very angry indeed if you disagree. It's incredibly prevalent online.

Meanwhile, genuine transsexuals, who have no interest in lesbians, whatsoever, are looking upon all this absolutely aghast. Miranda Yardley, a transwoman and her partner, Helen, another transwoman, write extensively about it. After many years, Miranda had to retire from Twitter because of the abuse she suffered as a result.

It's just got very messy, in my opinion.

ringle · 18/08/2017 12:24

"I do know that presenting in a feminine way and being known as 'she' and by my feminine name does help with that feeling of distress and helplessness and helps reduce the want to have to fix myself or hurt myself even further."

this is very helpful

I think the closest I've felt to this was certain stages of pregnancy which freaked me out.

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