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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be honest when giving a reference?

86 replies

ToffeeSauce · 12/08/2017 13:51

A woman in my team is leaving to go a rival business. When she handed in her notice I was pleased, as her performance had been pretty dreadful for a long time - slapdash and chaotic work, refusal to take responsibility for her area, lack of focus etc. She's very sweet though, and a nice person to have around the place. However, the area she covers in my team is too important for this to continue, so I had begun a formal disciplinary process with her, all agreed with by my boss and HR. Obviously not pleasant, hence why I was relieved when she resigned.

I've now been sent a reference request from her new employer, and it's much more detailed than I would have expected. It doesn't ask for me to 'write' anything, which I could have fudged a bit, but instead to give specific ratings for her performance in various areas, and asks the direct question: Would you hire this person again?

The truthful answer is obviously 'No', but I'm not sure what to do. I don't want to sabotage this woman's career (and in a self-interested way I very definitely want her to leave!) but I also don't want to lie. WWYD?

OP posts:
WeAllHaveWings · 12/08/2017 14:27

Did she ask if she could put you down as a reference?

I'd give to HR to fill in.

MeganBacon · 12/08/2017 14:28

Hand to HR and let them deal with it in line with corporate policy.
Everyone just gets the standard thing these days, how long they worked there, left when and if true "left of their own volition", i.e. not fired.

Original poster
ToffeeSauce · 12/08/2017 14:29

She did not ask weallhavewings

OP posts:
mimiholls · 12/08/2017 14:32

You need to give it to HR as everyone else has said. They will generally not give qualitative assessment of her for legal reasons, just confirm facts.

Ontheboardwalk · 12/08/2017 14:32

Another one to send it straight to HR - they'll no doubt just send back basic info.

I work for a Corporate and unless it's a strictly personal reference for a friend etc we're not allowed to give a reference incase we say the wrong thing that gets the company in trouble.

scrabbler3 · 12/08/2017 14:33

My HR dept wouldn't allow me to complete a form like this.

MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 12/08/2017 14:34

A reference should be truthful and factual.

I would also bounce it to HR. References come under their remit. They can decide how best to negotiate the situation to avoid any legal comeback from either the new employer or the ex-employee. I wouldn't like to speculate on what they would decide to do without being privy to all the facts.

quizqueen · 12/08/2017 14:36

If she's handed in her notice then she's leaving surely anyway. I wouldn't lie on the form. She doesn't deserve a job with a position of responsibility if it means a better candidate lost out. Just write a very non committal reference and let them read between the lines.

Catinthecorner · 12/08/2017 14:39

There's so much misinformation about references here. Particularly from people claiming legal knowledge.

References should be honest. So don't say 'she was going to be fired' but saying 'we were working through the disciplinary procedure' that's a probable fact. Fine to say.

Would you hire her again is a question asking your opinion. You wouldn't. It's fine to say that.

sirfredfredgeorge · 12/08/2017 14:39

I'm amazed you work for a company that has a formal process for disciplinary action, but hasn't provided you details on what to do with reference requests!

Remember she gets to see everything you write about her.

sirfredfredgeorge · 12/08/2017 14:41

but saying 'we were working through the disciplinary procedure' that's a provable fact. Fine to say.

But very, very stupid to say, there is no good for the company reason to say it, and the costs of proving it if necessary won't be nothing. All of the risks are negatives, yes you can say anything that is truthful - it's just not in your companies interest.

Changeofluckneeded · 12/08/2017 14:46

Pass over to HR.

If you have to do it yourself then just answer yes. What difference will it make to you really? You want her to leave, she's leaving. She's crap at this job but a lovely person, perhaps the job wasn't a good fit for her, perhaps she'll be excellent at the job she's going to.

You're not deciding whether to push the nuclear button in the White House. I wouldn't overthink this one.

MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 12/08/2017 14:55

There is a risk to the op from the new employer suing her personally and/or her company, if she says she would employ this person again [subjective opinion] while in the process of dismissing that same person for capability [objective fact].

So while it's obviously not akin to "deciding whether to push the nuclear button" it is not without risk to the op.

Which is why it's best to pass it over to HR to deal with :)

Original poster
ToffeeSauce · 12/08/2017 14:58

You're not deciding whether to push the nuclear button in the White House

For some reason this made me Grin

OP posts:
Original poster
ToffeeSauce · 12/08/2017 15:00

Just such a ludicrously OTT response to a perfectly sane question, asked in a perfectly sane way!

OP posts:
rjay123 · 12/08/2017 15:04

Or just write "I decline to give a reference".

It tells the other company everything, without saying anything.

alfagirl73 · 12/08/2017 15:07

Catinthecorner - I'm not "claiming" to have legal knowledge - I HAVE legal knowledge and the advice I gave the OP is almost word for word a textbook answer to an exam question about references in my employment law paper when I passed my honours law degree AND the advice regularly given out to employer clients when I worked in private practice.

The advice mostly given to employers regarding giving out references is that it should be a basic factual reference from an HR department (where possible) - or at least the person giving the reference should stick to dates of employment, job title, absence etc. Anything regarding disciplinary is not a good idea for the reasons I have given. A disciplinary process may have been started but what is to say that it would ever have been upheld? The employee could have demonstrated that the allegations against them were unfounded, or could have successfully appealed any decision - or even taken the matter to the ET. However, saying that a disciplinary process has commenced could unreasonably adversely affect the employee's chances of being employed and thus prevent him/her from earning a living. The employee then has grounds to bring legal action against the former employer.

It's equally inadvisable to rave about an employee's performance if they have been amazing. Who is to say that the employee will be as amazing in their new role? They could perform terribly and then the new employer could take action against the former employer saying that they lied about how good this person was.

Do you see? It's all very risky in terms of essentially asking one person to predict how an individual will perform in a new role in a new company. Some people just aren't a good fit for the company they are in and will absolutely fly in another company. And vice versa. I could be amazing in the job I'm in and be awful in a different company. And that's without considering external factors - disability, personal life circumstances etc. The whole thing is a complete minefield.

So I once again say that the best course of action is to pass the reference to the HR department who will, if they have any sense, send a factual reference confirming the basics, and leave it to the employee to move on and prove herself in her new job.

MuseumOfIdiots · 12/08/2017 15:09

The last reference I was asked for as an employer was very detailed and asked for lots of subjective information. Our employment law adviser told me to not even touch it but reply with a letter containing verifiable facts only i.e. start date, end date, job title and end salary - and absolutely nothing else. Tempting as it is to put your two penn'orth in, really, don't. It has massive potential to come back and bite your bum. Just enjoy the fact they no longer work with you.

eurochick · 12/08/2017 15:12

I didn't think anyone gave these sorts of subjective references any more. Your company probably has a policy on it. You could get them in a lot of trouble by filling in that form! Pass to HR and let them deal with it.

ny20005 · 12/08/2017 15:12

I would send to HR as well. I don't think employers now are allowed to give a bad reference as such but basic generic ones if you can't give a good one

We had an employee stealing & he resigned rather than being fired & we would have to give basic ref if asked 🙄

AngeloftheSouth84 · 12/08/2017 15:15

Where I work its common practice to give people good references in order to get rid of them easier. But then the other side of the coin is we're suspicious of people coming to us with glowing references!

Puzzledandpissedoff · 12/08/2017 15:25

What I'd do - have done - is to send the form back "uncompleted" with a generic letter attached giving dates of employment and salary and nothing else

I can almost guarantee that a future employer worth their salt would work out exactly what that means

Catinthecorner · 12/08/2017 15:29

To be honest I think paper references are fairly crap. You should call the person you want a reference from. Sometimes tone or specific wording is everything. Sometimes you want to dig into something specific.

But meh. What do I know?

Follow your company policy and if there isn't one follow your own mind.

OR you know, do what strangers on the internet claiming legal knowledge tell you to do (even if it's not remotely linked to actual legislation).

alfagirl73 · 12/08/2017 15:41

Museum you are exactly right - and that lawyer was spot on.

Even giving a good reference is not advised - as I said above - the employee could have been the best person you ever had working for you but, for various reasons, may perform badly at their new role. The new employer then thinks you are at best a liar and at worst, that you have cost them a fortune by recommending an employee who has turned out to be crap and they now have to get rid of them and incur the costs of further recruitment and training.

While there is no shortage of employers/managers who see a reference as an opportunity to stick the boot in with a former or soon-to-be former employee they didn't like, ANY subjective comment or suggestion in a reference is a bad idea and can come back to haunt you in a big way. Plus, if it is your company's policy that any references must be given by HR and are only to be generic basic factual references, and you take it upon yourself to "helpfully" provide your own opinion of the employee to the prospective new employer, you yourself could find yourself looking for a reference when your company fires you because they're being sued as a result of your comments.

PuppyMonkey · 12/08/2017 15:45

So, I'm curious - if this was a great employee and you wanted to sing their praises to the new employer, would you all still advise only doing a neutral letter with dates of employment etc?

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