To want to shout at people who write Southern Ireland

[ParadiseCity]

THERE IS NO SUCH FUCKING COUNTRY! And if you really were as clever as you pretend to be, you might just fucking know that. Arrrgghhh.

I feel a bit better for that. Please feel free to add your own

You can say southern/the south of anywhere without it having to be the name of a country. I live in southern Cumbria, which is not a country. If I said southern Ireland, I would mean the geographically southern part of Ireland, not a country whose name is Southern Ireland.

If more British people tried to find out a bit more about that period they might well be a little ashamed at the carryings on.

This. I knew very little until I met DH and was really shocked. Particularly re the famine and Black and Tans.

I actually chose to do some Irish history for a project on a course I was doing and it was enlightening. I did that because what his family say does need to be taken with a pinch of salt and fact checked too.

I did a presentation on it afterwards and tried very hard to be balanced, pointing out that the British were moving towards home rule and that there were some questionable actions on the Irish side. Another student came up afterwards and almost physically attacked me because she believed it was completely unacceptable to present the English as anything other than victims and the Irish as anything other than evil.

Yes Eolian, but when I tell someone (British) that I'm Irish, when they ask if I'm from Northern or Southern Ireland, that's not what they mean.

Similar to others, I'm fine with going up north or down south (regardless of actual direction of travel, although I'm generally going between Dublin and Belfast so it's accurate anyway), or referring to The North and The South. But Southern Ireland really grinds my gears.

And yes, as has been stated by a PP - NI athletes can indeed compete for Ireland or Team GB. But wouldn't it be nice if it were called Team UK in recognition of those Northern Irish athletes?!

Us Irish are a bit sensitive about such things

So I assume that you all refer to Democratic People's Republic of Korea and the Republic of Korea (rather than North and South Korea) and when talking about Cold war era Germany, only made reference to the German Democratic Republic and the Federal Republic of Germany (as opposed to East and West Germany).

It is common to use geographic descriptions when talking about divided or disputed countries as that's how people visualise the divide.

My Irish mum named me after her brother who was an IRA member!

She just referred to Ireland as "the old country" never called it anything else!

Both NI and the Republic are part of the British Isles though

Um, no. British Isles is a disputed term, its old fashioned and colonialist. It's not officially recognised, has no legal standing, and both the British (now) and Irish (for a long time) have avoided it's use. Official advice to both is not to use it at all.

It has always annoyed me when l meet someone from England and they know nothing about lrish history in connection with Britian. Once l met a guy who was a former British soldier in NI and he started telling us hilarios stories of stuff that happened on duty there. We were shocked and when we questioned him we realise he had no idea why he was there, the implications of it and no knowleve of any background to the struggle. We were gobsmacked.
I actually dont think its good enough to say we never learnt it in school. Your country is involved, study it yourself now.

I expect the Australians were taking the piss. It's their sort of humour, and sensitivities about the naming of parts of Britain and Ireland just the sort of thing that attracts mockery down here

myheart I've never heard of the Birmingham 6/Guildford 4 either!

I did Leaving Cert history and for boring irrelevant reasons was once in a London classroom where an A Level class were learning about the Land Wars. Blew my 17 year old mind and taught me a very important lesson about the subjective teaching of History.

Irish children do learn about history (and more of Irish/British history) than British children do, but believe when I say it's not objective, or neutral!

@SabineUndine I bet she was less cross than I was when DMIL said "I don't understand why you mind when I call you British! You all used to be. You were part of the United Kingdom!"

I left the room. I was absolutely furious. DH thought I was actually going to spontaneously combust. He Had Words and she's not come out with anything like that since. And I'm no Republican

Choccy
Guildford Four
Birmingham Six

NI athletes can indeed compete for Ireland or Team GB

It's not as simple as that in reality though. It depends on the governing body of the sport in question. I know a Northern Irish athlete who had reached a very high level in her sport, but wouldn't have been good enough to make the GB Olympic team.

She was an absolute cut above any ROI athletes (none of whom would actually have made the minimum standard for competition) but the ROI governing body for the sport in question wouldn't allow her to compete for ROI.

Shame, as she could have gone to the olympics.

Hugely off topic, sorry.

I've been listening to the Irish History Podcasts.

It's been mostly about the Famine, and some historical murders, but he has touched on previous British rule and partition and I hope he will get round to more about late 20th Century Ireland.

Although from this thread, I'm not sure the wikipedia listing for Partition is particularly accurate:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_Ireland

'The partition of Ireland (Irish: críochdheighilt na hÉireann) was the division of the island of Ireland into two distinct jurisdictions, Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland. It took place on 3 May 1921 under the Government of Ireland Act 1920. Today the former is still known as Northern Ireland and forms part of the United Kingdom, while the latter is now a sovereign state also named Ireland and sometimes called the Republic of Ireland'.

I thought the Republic of Ireland was the 'correct' name for the, umm, Republic of Ireland?

I did a presentation on it afterwards and tried very hard to be balanced, pointing out that the British were moving towards home rule and that there were some questionable actions on the Irish side. Another student came up afterwards and almost physically attacked me because she believed it was completely unacceptable to present the English as anything other than victims and the Irish as anything other than evil

This is the sort of thing I meant upthread about it being difficult to teach the history of Ireland, in particular in relation to British Rule etc without bias, not that anyone would be radicalised by the material.

abigcupoffuckyou, I'm not sure why British Isles have been brought into this, but I wouldn't really agree. Yes, in Ireland it is controversial and not used, but most people in the UK wouldn't think twice about it. UK government and media might avoid its use to avoid upsetting the Irish.

So I assume that you all refer to Democratic People's Republic of Korea and the Republic of Korea (rather than North and South Korea) and when talking about Cold war era Germany, only made reference to the German Democratic Republic and the Federal Republic of Germany (as opposed to East and West Germany).

Yeah, that's a fair point. I don't think the Irish necessarily care enough about other countries to afford them the care and attention in terminology they expect for themselves.

There'd be more empathy on the topic though.

Laurie - think most sportspeople have to declare for one or the other early in their career? I suspect many face tough decisions as there is much better infrastructure and funding in the UK, but also much more competition.

I thought the Republic of Ireland was the 'correct' name for the, umm, Republic of Ireland?

no, its the descriptor and name.

abigcupoffuckyou, I'm not sure why British Isles have been brought into this, but I wouldn't really agree. Yes, in Ireland it is controversial and not used, but most people in the UK wouldn't think twice about it. UK government and media might avoid its use to avoid upsetting the Irish

Avoid upsetting the Irish? So implying it's completely fine to use outdated and disputed terms but they need to be pc in case the paddies get irate?
Just because the British use it doesn't make it ok. And official guidance is not to use it.

Liv it's not a high profile sport with much of a competitive scene in either country.

Opportunities in ROI in particular are virtually non existent, so it seems a bit harsh to hold that against her.

Barbara - I'm no expert, but I don't think Republic of Ireland is the legally correct name. ASAIK, the country is just called Ireland. It is a republic, and so ROI is often used where "Ireland" may be ambiguous as one may be discussing the country or the island.

I think Republic of Ireland is no more official than Republic of France, say. It's just used to distinguish, if that makes sense.

choccy - some light reading for you there in those links. the story about the Guildford four was also made into a film called In the name of the Father which tells the story from gerry Conlon. It wasn't just 4 of them though, there were members of the extended family that were arrested also and jailed for many many years. I think the youngest was a 12/13 year old boy.

If you're not on your feet by the end of the film cheering them on and crying your eyes out!

Just

Your mother in law's attitude reminds me of the Stewart Lee's IRA 'gentleman British bombers routine' (obviously SL doesn't actually think that)

Laurie - I think once any sportsperson in any country has declared for one country, it can be quite hard to switch to another. It is a bit shit, I will grant you that! I wonder if it's the custom that the UK and Ireland don't typically accept NI citizens who change allegiance. Definitely crap for your friend though, not disagreeing with you there!

I think Irish people overestimate the importance of Ireland to anyone outside of Ireland.

araiwa - mainly we just want British people to get the basics right. Low enough expectations further afield than that. Not too much to expect British people to know the basics given our shared, intertwined history (and indeed present). Blew my mind when I joined here how many people didn't know NI is in the UK, or that ROI isn't.

I think Irish people overestimate the importance of Ireland to anyone outside of Ireland.

This may well be true. It was probably learnt when under occupation from the English who suffer from the same affliction.