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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that all private schools DO NOT cheat at exams?

142 replies

IsItJustUsOrNot · 19/07/2017 17:24

Firstly, hello all. Secondly, name changed. Thirdly, I'm not looking for all the usual anti or pro private education arguments or comments that we all already know and love. So here goes:

Some pupils at our Prep were given 'help' to pass their Common Entrance exams this year, whether they wanted it or not. After the exam sessions had finished and the papers collected in, some pupils were called back later the same day to do them again, rewrite them to neaten them up, shown where extra marks could be picked up and so on, or a whole paper was gone through before an exam. We are being told that this is only to help the pupils, there is nothing bad about it, they are not public exams and all Preps do it. Some of us are not convinced however, see it as cheating and, worse, that the children have been forced to cheat. Who is right?

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silkpyjamasallday · 20/07/2017 13:33

It's certainly not universal but there was a fair amount of cheating done or sanctioned by teachers at my private secondary. The teachers are under massive pressure to produce the grades the school needs for league tables and the grades parents think they have paid for.

Original poster
IsItJustUsOrNot · 20/07/2017 14:00

Yes, I can see that happening, silkpyjamasallday. I wouldn't have said that our Prep is one of those high pressure schools. It has its high flyers yes and those going to the high profile schools, but is happily not selective and has pupils of most abilities. It does however pride itself in all pupils passing CE and getting into their senior schools!

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JacquesHammer · 20/07/2017 15:49

How do you know

Not whom you originally asked the question to, but I am pretty convinced the prep I went to didn't do it.

The senior took an entry of 80 pupils. There were 30 in the prep, 22 went and 8 didn't, due to not getting a high enough mark. Out of the 8 who didn't get a place, one was the kid of a celebrity and the other had a father who would throw money at the school left, right and centre.

Just conjecture on my part but would think kids like the latter would be an obvious candidate for "altering results" or "helping".

Original poster
IsItJustUsOrNot · 20/07/2017 16:25

AnotherNewt raises the issues of references, pre tests and getting conditional offers of senior school places in the first place. It would not surprise me because of other related issues at the school if some pupils have been given 'help' there too. It has been said that a pupil was leapfrogged over another for a place at a prestigious school because of the other family's close relationship with the HM and after intense lobbying by the HM for the successful pupil but little or none for the other. I do not know the full story of course and other factors might have been more relevant. Both pupils were apparently 'helped' with CEs however with parents being quite open about it as par for the course/needs must/nothing wrong with it. The other pupil has gone to another reasonably high profile, just not as prestigious, school. There is a feeling with some parents/staff/even pupils that some pupils get more help than others from the HM with scholarships and senior school places and that this help is not always based on merit. Several people have mentioned the HM's senior school reference being held over them like a swinging ton weight lest they complain about him or the school. I am not sure where this all fits on the fairness scale with the CEs. It is perhaps a side issue but I hope adds to the picture.

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Original poster
IsItJustUsOrNot · 20/07/2017 16:33

On that basis JacquesHammer, I would agree with you about your Prep. The only exceptions being if those parents had upset the HM or the pupils had significant behaviour issues?

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JacquesHammer · 20/07/2017 20:35

IsIt

Again obviously I can't be sure. I do know there were no behavioural issues. One was head girl in fact 😂

MsSusanStoHelit · 20/07/2017 20:45

That's definitely cheating and definitely not done by all schools - I think our mistresses would have actually died rather than allow that.

Mind you we were extremely academically strong any way.

still hated it and they still fucked over my mental health

Original poster
IsItJustUsOrNot · 20/07/2017 21:40

Jacques Well, anything is possible if a HG or HB are chosen for debatable reasons, as we have found!

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Original poster
IsItJustUsOrNot · 20/07/2017 21:53

MsSusan It always saddens me to hear that a school did not do right by a child to that extent, and I hope that adult life has been much kinder to you. I am not fond of emojis, but I will make an exception for youFlowers
I would say that without being a hothouse we are academically quite strong too. Certainly former staff and parents who know about this year's CEs to my knowledge are completely horrified by what has happened. Some current staff and parents too are completely shocked and very disappointed in our school.

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Barbie222 · 20/07/2017 21:59

Goodness, no experience of private so this probably sounds like a daft question but - aren't they sat under exam conditions, external marking, etc? Or are these more of a coursework thing? Genuinely don't know.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 20/07/2017 22:14

Well there was cheating at my kid's state primary on Y6 SATS, so I don't imagine private schools are any more principled.

Wasn't there a claim by an Art teacher that she completed prince Harry's A level Art coursework for him at Eton?

Original poster
IsItJustUsOrNot · 20/07/2017 22:24

Barbie222 Not a daft question at all. They are marked internally if the pupil is staying on at our Prep's college, or otherwise sent for marking to the senior school the pupil hopes to attend. The tampering happened before the papers went to senior schools. They are meant to be taken under exam conditions yes, but are supervised by teaching staff not external invigilators.

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Paffle · 20/07/2017 22:28

I'm confused. There is another active thread on this topic (but started a while ago). Are there genuinely two separate threads about this or is one a follow-on?

Original poster
IsItJustUsOrNot · 20/07/2017 22:38

It's a good point Tinkly - why should one sector be seen as more or less principled than the other? Both are subject to the dreaded league tables. I wonder though if in the private sector it is easier because there is more autonomy and with fees/donations sometimes being a powerful motivating factor? Now you mention it, I do remember the Harry claim, so add in celebrity and connections too.

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Original poster
IsItJustUsOrNot · 20/07/2017 23:10

The threads are slightly different Paffle and this has been posted in AIBU to attract more traffic and a broader range of posters than perhaps frequent the Staffroom.

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UsedtobeFeckless · 20/07/2017 23:54

I do an evening class with several teachers. One talks quite openly about "sprucing up" pupils dodgy course work. I don't know if she's state or private, though - she's very indiscrete about children she teaches and downright nasty about a dyslexic one so l try and avoid her.

BertrandRussell · 21/07/2017 07:40

I think there is a lot wrong with the new GCSEs, but I do think that you would have to have been incredibly, phenomenally principled as a teacher not to be tempted to cheat the way they have been.........

TipTopTipTopClop · 21/07/2017 07:45

Preps have nothing apart from their reputations to trade on, so this seems unlikely to be a pervasive practice.

In the first instance, their principle remit is to discourage their pupils from sitting for schools which have too high a CE pass mark.

Paninotogo · 21/07/2017 07:48

My experience is that they all do, in one way or another. They can easily get away with it and good results ensure they retain their popularity.

BertrandRussell · 21/07/2017 07:52

"Preps have nothing apart from their reputations to trade on, so this seems unlikely to be a pervasive practice"
Interesting-this reads to me like a contradictory statement.

JacquesHammer · 21/07/2017 08:27

My experience is that they all do, in one way or another

Sweeping generalisations aren't helpful or indeed able to be backed up with fact.

It's impossible to have any sort of discussion surrounding private education without sweeping generalisations on both sides, which makes it difficult to have a sensible debate

BertrandRussell · 21/07/2017 08:43

This isn't a private/state discussion, is it?

JacquesHammer · 21/07/2017 08:55

Bertrand not sure I said it was? I said it was a discussion surrounding private education.

AnotherNewt · 21/07/2017 09:11

CE is sat only for entrance to private schools, so if specific to this exam it has to be about private school practices.

I don't think however that cheating in exams is limited to CE. And I think all cheating is rare.

The CE exam is unusual, because of the way that it is marked, that it is confirmatory not competitive, and that there is normally a 100% pass mark. That's not because of cheating, but because it comes at the end of a matching process (involving pre-tests, interviews, references, taster days etc) so the future pupil should end up with offers from schools within capability.

Then no later than about March, the parents have to issue a 'First Choice' letter. This means all the numbers settle down about 3 months before the exams. And CE is just the final confirmation of the list, the papers being marked by the destination school.

It's rare that a school mucks up its numbers at the offers stage, so it has to fail some pupils but it does happen occasionally. If their numbers are right, even 'near misses' will pass.

So I think that cheating the offers component of a CE entry system is far worse. Though as pre-tests are taken at the destination school, that part isn't going to be subject to cheating by the prep. But if the school doesn't pre-test and attaches a great deal of weight to head's reference, then there is scope for forms of cheating by unduly glowing.

But that's a recipe for disaster for the school long term. Because if pupils consistently do not live up to their billing, the references for future pupils will not be given the same weight, making it tougher for all pupils leaving the school (word gets round)

TipTopTipTopClop · 21/07/2017 10:05

Students spend years 7 and 8 preparing for the CE, that's their curriculum. If they are not going to pass, it becomes evident early on and the schools have time to manage expectations on all ends rather than taking the risky and short-sighted move of bolstering results.

Any perceived motive to mark up the results is a failure of the most important process the school will undertake on a child's behalf, which is guiding the parents in their secondary school selection.

Either of these are ruinous for a school's reputation.