To find John mcdonnell comments disgusting

Not as bad as Phillip Hammond saying public sector workers are overpaid, clearly he must have been talking about himself and his cronies

I cannot stand McDonnell but most students would be happy with a return to £3,000 a year at this point so i can see thw rhetoric of 'ambition'.


Social murder?....well taken into account how the residents were ignored before and kensingtons response afterwards i would agree with social manslaughter.

He's an awful man

Why do you feel 'social murder' is a disgusting comment?

I don't think wiping debt was in the manifesto, no. Abolishing fees, yes, but not paying off existing debts.

He didn't claim to 'wipe out student debt' in the manifesto. How would you describe the Grenfell fire?

No, wiping out student debt wasn't part of the manifesto. And given the way the resident's complaint were dismissed I think Grenfell could be a case of corporate manslaughter, it could so easily have been prevented.

Grenfell residents begged the authorities to improve the safety of the building, and they were ignored and belittled. Social murder sounds fair enough comment to me.

Why do you find 'social murder' a 'disgusting' comment (rather than merely an innacurate one)?

His comments are completely out of order. There is no such thing as social manslaughter/murder.
There is corporate manslaughter which could be applicable to an organisation that failed its tenants in this case.
But - there is absolutely no need to to politicise the situation.
There was an implication that existing fees would be wiped but it was not in the manifesto.

What's wrong with 'social murder' (apart from being a bit awkward and probably being better as manslaughter)? Maybe he's coining a phrase rather than using a legal term -- there are lots of ways in which society and the companies we let run parts of it have belittled and ignored the views of people like the Grenfell residents. Having them live in an inflammable building to cut costs, for instance. It is a political tragedy, whatever you'd prefer. (Not necessarily a party political one, but a political one.)

I didn't vote Labour and think that John McDonnell is all that is wrong with the current Labour Party. However, I looked at all the manifestos when they came out and was never given the impression that there was anything relating to existing student debt and fees. The manifesto was clear in its aim to pass a bill that would abolish student fees if they Labour Party were in government.

It is social murder. They knew there were safety risks and ignored them. It's not like manslaughter where they didn't know they could kill them.
Very shit to be going back on election promises though.

Social housing, building regulations, the lack of regulation of rented property, lack of affordable housing, letting housing be used as investment rather than homes are political issues

Well as a teacher I find Hammond saying I had a 3.5% pay rise much more offensive, a blatant lie. At least McDonnell is voicing an opinion about the shocking way valid concerns were ignored. He is not the one who lied on the Marr show today

Manifesto was to abolish fees, labour have now said they would also like to retroactively wipe out student debt, but they recognise it is a big commitment and so it remains an ambition rather than a set in stone commitment. Nothing wrong there at all.

Social murder? You may not like the phrase, but I'm glad we have some politicians who still get angry about this kind of thing, it is a political issue because warnings were given, but political and financial decisions were made regarding the housing and the emergency services which can be directly linked to this disaster. yes for sure people should be held accountable otherwise it will happen again. Yes it is emotive language, but people dying in a terrible way trapped in a burning high rise - it is almost too horrific to imagine, if we can't get emotive and angry and disgusted that such a thing has happened in the 21st century then we are in a sorry way.

I hope John McDonnell and JC keep speaking out about this despite the petty comments about politicising it. It is a political issue, and a matter of life and death.

So you are disgusted by the term "social murder"? I am much more disgusted by corporations and government that permit tall buildings to be wrapped in highly flammable materials in order to make a buck.

I am much more disgusted by the fact that it is now a problem to house the survivors in their own community because it might be expensive (where has the insurance money gone?).

I'm not a fan of him, and his statement may have been hyperbole but it is not disgusting nor is it a lie.

With Grenfell there have clearly been many many failings and that situation could be repeated if not fixed quickly in tower blocks up and down the country.

Student debt - as others have said what was in the manifesto was to abolish tuition fees for future students. Nobody said anything about wiping out existing debts.

Ask the people who almost burned to death what they think!

'Social murder' is a phrase coined by Engels.

But when society places hundreds of proletarians in such a position that they inevitably meet a too early and an unnatural death, one which is quite as much a death by violence as that by the sword or bullet; when it deprives thousands of the necessaries of life, places them under conditions in which they cannot live – forces them, through the strong arm of the law, to remain in such conditions until that death ensues which is the inevitable consequence – knows that these thousands of victims must perish, and yet permits these conditions to remain, its deed is murder just as surely as the deed of the single individual; disguised, malicious murder, murder against which none can defend himself, which does not seem what it is, because no man sees the murderer, because the death of the victim seems a natural one, since the offence is more one of omission than of commission. But murder it remains.

What is awful are the current and very real Tory/DUP policies that are running our country straight into the ground.

Social murder / manslaughter- absolutely.
Residents raised their concerns and we're repeatedly ignored.
The person involved in making big decisions at the council also had some involvement with the private firms involved and as since gone on to be involved in Shelter.
The cladding was put on because they wanted to make the view nicer for rich neighbours.
The same year sprinklers were cut from the refurbishment, the council was giving £100 tax refunds to people who paid their council tax up front for the year.

The manifesto pledge was to abolish tuition fees, not wipe off historic debt (though im a labour supporter who is not in favour of zero fees because too many people do degrees in naff subjects from poor quality institutions. I'd rather see funding increased for health, teaching, social work, environmental courses etc)

gamer Very shit to be going back on election promises though
They aren't going back on election promises because
a) They weren't elected. Promises only apply that el cation, there'll be new manifestos from everyone next time, and, more importantly,
b) They didn't promise this. They promised to abolish fees. Corbyn said at the time he would like to wipe debt, as McDonnel is now saying it has always been an ambition. It was never a promise.

Hammond also dragged the train drivers into it (just to muddy the waters?). It was his lot who privatised the railways, so they are in the private sector not public and it's the 'free market' (which they are happy to quote when it's a CEO getting the big bucks) and pay rises funded by productivity deals that have improved train driver wages. The only reason Southern have offered such a huge increase (note it was offered, not asked for by the drivers) to their drivers is that if they accept it, they can cut their wage bill by getting rid of their conductors.
The public don't understand railway privatisation, the train operating Co's such as Southern have no assets, they rent their trains (from train leasing Co's), pay Networkrail for access to the track they run their trains on, they own nothing and the only way to increase profit is to reduce their wage bill.
Sorry went off on a railway rant !