to be upset that Germany always seems to be getting such a bad press on MN?

[emkana]

The thing is, I can understand where people are coming from, as living here now I find quite a few things that many German parents (and non-parents) do quite bizarre as well.

But it still saddens me...

personally ive been to germany on holiday and adored it, felt safe, people fantastic, cant wait to go back

Is Germany really getting bad press? How sad. I think it seems like a wonderful country and am very of the level of greenness and child-friendlyness over there. I really want to go to south Germany and see the lakes, forests and mountains and my children dream about visiting Neuschwanstein.

Oh yes, German people are lovely.

Nah Hunker... they call it "home"

I've not noticed bad germany threads, but i guess its one of those things you don't notice if it doesn't affect you iysiwm.

Have a hug

IMO, it's the school system, not Germany as a whole. Gets discussed on Living Overseas & Language /Bilingualism and is often us expats asking for/swapping advice & stories. Bound to be horror stories, like a lot of topics which revolve around life in the UK

Dumbledoresgirl, I didn't mean that Italy gets a bad press specifically on MN, I know that there are many MNnetters that are fond of it and fit the italian temperament . Some mumnetter (califrau and ellbell for instance) even speak excellent italian!
But Italy does get a bad press in international newpapers. And rightly so: mafia, corruption, 5 years of Berlusconi's government anyone? . However, sometimes it hurts a bit, especially when you are a bit homesick

Emkana, haven't seen any threads recently that are german bashing...but yeah, I know what you mean! Like you there are things that I find somehow odd, as I have been living over in the UK for like 11 years now, but it still isn't nice when germany in general are being put down!

oh gosh, did I come across as a Berlusconi supporter??? [horrified emoticon] oooh nooooo far from that! no, it was just a list of things that deserve italy a bad press, and rightly so. Franca keeps her distance from berlusconi.

Of course every country has good and bad bits and naturally as parents we're affected by the school system. That's what we mostly gripe about.

This is from the report about UN Commission on Human Rights:

"In Germany, school children are divided into different types of high school depending on their performance at primary school, which runs until the 5th or 6th year, depending on which German state they live in. Upon their teacher's recommendation, they continue their education either at the top-tier Gymnasium,which allows them to go to university afterwards, the more vocationally oriented Realschule, or the bottom-tier Hauptschule."

(In many states, as where we are, it's after 4 years of primary, or in reality, 3.5 as the recommendation comes in January of Y4. The children start school at 6 or 7 and this selection comes when they are 9 or 10)

"International experts are amazed when they see that teachers here are expected to divide up children after only four years of school into gifted and ungifted, into fast and slow, and into future manual laborers and future scientists. Naturally no one would accept a three-class system of voting rights, but the three-tier school system is defended by conservative politicians as if it were something sacred."

For all the many wonderful things about life here, the education system has many deficits, sadly. The lack of any SEN system really gets me down. Particularly as ds1 has a SEN (mild dyslexia/concentration problem) which means he gets 95% on one test and 70% on the next and that lack of consistency effectively means no A-levels & no university. The decision was made 2 days before his 10th birthday.

from the report by the UN....

fink, it wasn't always like that though...way back when I was at school (gosh, seems a lifetime away....) we had Grundschule (which is Primary school, I suppose) and then had 2 years in Orientierungsstufe , and after that the recommendation was made. So, Kids were 6 years in school!
In Orientierungsstufe we would, in some subjects, be broken up into different groups with different abilities in that subject. English forinstance had an a (very good at it), b and c course...Maths, too, if I remember correctly and am sure there was at least one more subject in which that happened.
However, if you end up going to Hauptschule you can still do a further year to get your Realschulabschluss, and if good enough, you can once you have your Realschulabschluss and did it well enough, go to Gymnasium...same goes for Kids that originally went to Realschule, they cna always, if they do have the ability, go further to Gymnasium and do their Abitur.
So, it isn't teh end all and be all!

oh em, hope you're not sad about me - you know me, I'm more or less half German by now anyway so am allowed to bash it
Earlier on another thread I was waxing lyrical about renting culture and tenants' rights in Germany. And I am (seriously) eternally grateful for the healthcare. But I'll admit I do, like many others, have serious problems with the education system, all the more so for having been on the inside of it.
SEA - I am FiT - this was my very first MN name - changed back after a Recognising Incident

p.s. em, I think I owe you an email? [oops]

3easterbunnies, yes, I've heard that too and of course it makes more sense. The pressure has been growing on teachers and schools esp since PISA and that transfers right down to primary. I keep raving about the Gesamtschule we saw, not only because it streams the children within the school but because it had so much focus on the child, no the Leistung/marks. Sadly too far away for us.
Am crossing fingers we get one locally, it's being mooted and am v pleased.
Cos the reality sadly is that employers value the Gymnasium Abitur so much higher - and I hear that from people in HR who are as shocked about it. Tbh, we could send ds1 to G but he'd hate it and we'd be drilling him every afternoon. He doesn't perform well under pressure and the children are increasingly pressurised. We've chosen a school we think is best for him now and we'll face what the future brings when that comes.

Must say, I've been floored by the whole thing.

I find sometimes sweeping 'Irish' references are made. It seems more acceptable to stereotype European nations than non European perhaps. I have had two experiences of Education systems away from Ireland, a term in America and one in England (where my ds had sats after 4 days in school!) There were things I found good and bad in both, but happily accepted things would be different. I have a German A Level, but we never seem to go there for me to impress everyone with my ... fluency! DD1 is keeping it on as an exam subject.

Fink...I have lived over here for 11 years now (UK) and I know so much has changed since...I mean, yeah, when I was younger, soemtimes it was actually a good thing not to have an Abi, if you wanted to do certain Jobs...as they would feel you would be overqualified and would only want to move on to better things or study, etc...! I suppose that truely has changed then.
I must say, I am finding the brittish schoolsystem in some ways odd...but, I am sure it's due to me not growing up with it...! I don't liek that over here Kids start school after a certain age, rather then checking if a child is actually ready for school...surely all Kids devellope so different....I know that my es, could he have started a year later would have probably fared better from the beginning. Whereas my ms so is ready for school, but because he is a Novemberchild he will be almost 5 by the time he starts...god knows how it will be for ys, as even thoguh he is 21m younger then ms, because his birthday is early august he will start school a year after ms...ready or not...!
I mean, I know you can actually decide not to send the child to receptionyear and start them a year later, but, what good will that do, if they actually miss the recpetionyear altogetehr and will miss all that is taught in that year, and are thrown in, in year1...doesn't make sense to me at all, sigh!

I find difficult to navigate the english education system too, and miss the italian 2 and half years of free nursery school, I'm not happy that ds has started school so early. It is really difficult to accept a different school system, because your children going to school in a different country might feel like the ultimate forsaking of your culture. As for secondary school, I'm a bit at lost too, I hope that in time fellow wise mnetter will be able to give me some good advice.

I think it sounds like bashing because we only come on to get support if we have a problem, the same as all the threads about bad experiences at UK schools or things in general. I mean who comes on to say "The lady at the supermarket was really friendly today" or "I have a really nice teacher for dd, he's great" it just sounds silly. Maybe we should all post when something really nice happens just as often as when something goes wrong!

LOL at myself and the school starting age. When I found out that ds1 would start aged 6 I was huffing & puffing about it being so late and was even contemplating teaching him to read myself beforehand. Then I read up a bit about how children learn and saw how much he loved kindergarten with its mix of playing in the mud and with Lego, drawing treasure maps & whatever he was into - balanced by the monitoring and development of motor skills, social skills and "fun learning" and I relaxed. He had 2 excellent kg teachers (dd has them now) and started school at 6.5.
Some may be ready for school earlier but ime and imo, 6 is fine. Children with mid-summer/early-autumn birthdays are invited to the school where the head does an informal talk/test including a bit of PE to see if they are ready for school that year. The kindergarten also does an assessment. I feel sorry for some of the mums when I read the threads on Primary because there's so much worry when they're so young.
Also much less form-filling etc. I think it's great that the kg teachers will spontaneously take the children off to the woods or vineyards/wineries to see the harvest stuff or even just the playground on a sunny morning. And the schools are unlocked. I sneaked in last week because I'd forgotten to take dss's PE bags out of the car and they'd gone off without them.
One thing Germany does right

3easterbunnies; I spoke to a mum last week who trains people to do a local authority job in "Sozialversicherung". She said the qualification requirement is Hauptschulabschluss and the last 3 years 95% of their applicants had Abitur. It's a changing job market - scarily so.
Am concentrating on bringing up happy children who learn to enjoy and to question the world around them and not only worry about their future employment prospects.
Sounds pompous, don't mean it

Hi Finknottle. I used to think it was far too late aswell and was always comparing my niece in the UK to ds who was reading and going to full time school a year before us. Now I see that they are more or less on the same level (had to do abit of coaching for reading but not much).
I would always tell parents if given the choice don't put your dc in school early as we did with dd. She should be in year 1 but we got her eingeschult early so she is in year 2. Didn't realise she would suffer so much by being the youngest in the class - even though academically she is in the top 3 she still isn't as confident as the other girls and we wouldn't have the conflict situations like the school trip. I think alot of Kindergartens could do more in the last year - dd was bored to tears as she was in a mixed group with very small kids and they had activities to suit them more than any - a good vor-schule programme would have kept her happy . One big problem is that the staff aren't officially qualified to do any teaching - they seemed to avoid any mention of ABC or counting over 10 as if they had some rule against it.

Hi Admylin
It's more the teachers who are against kg teaching imo as they are "Lehrerinnen" and the kg lot are only "Erzieherinnen" - OK maybe they worry about a consistent approach but that would be doable fgs. Find it a bit hypocritical as the schools often complain the children are lacking in xyz skills but jealously guard their territory.
Our primary and kg have a new pre-school programme (for the last year) which looks promising. Am still full of praise for dd's kg teachers, they're so on the ball about the children's development, strengths and weaknesses etc. and always have a child on their lap. It really is a lovely environment. When I hear mums moaning about "They should be learning this/that/English/French/quantum physics" aged 3 or 4, I tell them they're lucky to have a kg where the children can be pre-school children. They'll be at school long enough.
Re the Einschulung, interesting that you say that. I think that's where a good kg teacher will recognise that a child isn't ready on the social side. It's a hard decision, isn't it? We'll be in that position next year.