DD8 Petty Definance, Lost Trust, Stealing Perminent Markers

[BloodyPens]

Sorry this is long, NC as I suspect I'm being rediculous by being so annoyed...

We have been having problems with my 8 year old DD over the past few months, with her being defiant – sneakily doing things she knows she’s not allowed to do, mainly involving taking things she knows she’s not supposed to have.
A few months ago we had several incidents in a day, she took some Rennies, ate them (I assume), and stashed the empty packets.
She emptied half a tube of Anusol in the toilet as apparently she was cross with me.
She’s stolen/taken random items of mine such as sewing needles and stashed them in her room.

Many months ago she was banned from having pens in in her room as she has ruined many bed sheets with them, after several warnings she was banned from having anything other than pencils in her bed, and then in her room at all after she continued to sneak pens/felt tips into her bed and ruin her sheets.
And yet she has, may times, sneaked pens into her bedroom.

She’s not allowed chewing gum as she can’t use it properly – takes it out of her mouth, gets it stuck to things, hair etc.

A few weeks ago I was very angry with her as I discovered she had taken a whole packet of chewing gum (perhaps my fault for keeping it within sight and reach in the cupboard but she knows she’s not allowed it and for some silly reason it never occurred to me she wouldn’t take it). I went into her room to the stench of mint to find she had put the whole packet of gum in her mouth at once, confirming that she really cannot be trusted to have chewing gum.
I was so angry that she defied me, stole the gum when she knew she wasn’t supposed to have it, and then did something so silly with it by eating it all at once.
We had a big talk about how she had lost my trust, why I don’t want her to have gum, and how I need to know I can trust her.
She seemed genuinely remorseful and made an effort to 'earn back my trust' for a few days and then we didn’t have any incidents for a few weeks.

Then earlier this week I discovered crisps in her room. I do not allow food upstairs – their room is messy enough without food crumbs added to the mix. They were left over crisps from her school packed lunch that she had taken upstairs and half eaten in her bed, putting crumbs everywhere.
I don’t understand, she could have eaten them downstairs, why did she have to decide to defy me and chose to take them upstairs when she knows I’d be cross?

The last straw was just now, I went into their room to say goodnight to my youngest after reading to the DD in question, I could immediately smell permanent marker. DD claims she ‘found it downstairs’. No, she TOOK it from my pencil case and decided to take it to her room and hide it.
Now she knows she is not allowed permanent markers, she knows that they stain, and she knows that she is not allowed any kind of pens in her bedroom anymore. So she has stolen the pen, and decided to defy me by taking it into her room.
I am so cross.
I cannot trust her to follow the few rules.
She is intentionally choosing to defy me, I cannot trust her.

I think I need some perspective because I am willing to accept that I am blowing this totally out of proportion and over reacting. I don’t know if I am, just that I am so annoyed and frustrated but can see that what she has done isn’t actually that bad, it’s just the collection of lots of smaller, similar things adding up.

She is generally a good kid.
She is well behaved at school.
At home we have problems with her being very stroppy, often getting very upset at the slightest things, shouting/screaming/banging in temper. We have usual sibling squabbles with some hurting of her sister (but her sisters gives as much as she receives) but she’s generally a good kid and will usually do as she’s asks and will help without too much protesting. So a normal 8 year old girl, I think.

It’s just these trust issues and the defiance that we're struggling with and I don’t know what to do about it but I hate not knowing what she’ll do next and not being able to trust her.

For a mostly sensible girl she does some worrying stuff, such as stealing and eating the Rennies (she says the packet was empty but I cannot trust her on that) What if it was some other dangerous medication? I know I should keep dangerous stuff locked away but I need access to certain medications in my bedroom.
She also ate some Citric Acid from a chemistry set. Wtf, child!!? In her defence we’ve used citric acid for cooking so she knows it’s sour in a tasty way and not terribly dangerous but that was food grade, the stuff in her chemistry set isn’t, yet she apparently just eats random stuff now. (Chemistry set has since been removed)

I feel like there should be some consequences for this latest defiance. But I don’t know what.
I’m not sure I believe that punishment works, I want her to understand why I ask her to do/not do things, and behave appropriately for obvious reasons, rather than out of fear of punishment, but it’s not working. Not that punishing has worked either.
There’s nothing else I can really take away from her.
All I can think is to stop her going on a fairly expensive end of school trip that I am yet to pay for. I begrudge paying this money for her to have this fun day out when she has repeatedly deceived, lied and disappointed me over the past few months.

But it seems harsh for her to be the only one not allowed to go, and to carry this over into school, a place where she is usually well behaved.
(Though, that reminds me, a month or so ago she stole a white board marker from school – has since returned it)

But am I being unreasonable, over the top and strict and this is just normal, 8 year old child stuff?
I wouldn’t say I am very strict. I have certain expectations but they have a fair bit of freedom, get to play all sorts of things, make messes, etc, so it’s not like she crying out for creative expression or rebelling against a terribly strict homelife or something?

I don’t know.

Has anything changed in her life recently? New people, new routine etc? If she's behaving at school perhaps there's something at home that's making her act up.

I have 2 dd's but they're still very young, so in that way I can't help but I was a bit of a nightmare child. I wouldn't listen to my parents, I defied every rule they put in front of me and insisted I knew best in everything. In a way I think most children go through a defiant stage, I grew out of it pretty quickly but some children take a bit longer.

What has your dp said about it?

Don't mean to read and rush but:

Rennies and anusol should be locked in a medical cupboard. An 8 yo should not have access to this.

If she's not allowed pens because she makes a mess, have you considered making her wash the stains out herself? I do this with my dd who is a similar age but who loves to paint in bed (and was sneaky about it until I got her to take care of her own messes).

Just wondering that if you punish like this for relatively minor stuff, what do you do for major stuff? She clearly doesn't take you seriously and feels she can steal your things and go against your instructions - so I wonder if you enforce anything you say to her.

It sounds like you have got yourselves into a battle of wills and it's making you both miserable tbh. I have to agree with PP she shouldn't have been able to get the Rennies or Anusol it could have been so much worse had she taken a medication that was dangerous.
Have you tried putting rules a different way as it all seems so negative and punishments for failing to meet them. So rather than no pens or pencils in the bedroom give her an area downstairs, put up a sign and call it her Art Studio and make sure you notice when she uses it and perhaps buy little extras to use there.when you see her using it.
It's pretty easy to make rules positive ones and give incentives to help her meet them.
As for the trip, no I wouldn't refuse to pay, you would be singling her out from her friends and making her isolated and damaging her self esteem and your relationship further.
It's time for one of you to stop the downward spiral and you are the adult so it's up to you. Try and build more positivity and fun into your relationship so that she wants to behave well because she enjoys your attention and time spent with you.

You have a whole lot of petty rules right there. Maybe if you relaxed some of them there would be less diffiant?

Bed sheets fi. Does it really matter if she gets ink stains on her bedding? The natural consequence of that is she has ink stained sheets til you buy her new in a few years time.

If she gets crumbs in her room from eating up there, she can hoover them up when she cleans it.

Her use of chewing gum is gross but normal.

You sound a lot like my mum. Your dd reminds me of me at that age. All those petty little rules and punishments and then big heavy lectures about "trust". In a nutshell, the more you push down and micro manage, the more she will push back, lie and deceive you. Good luck!

I have an eight year old who is determined, stubborn and keen for independence. On bad days it can end with a battle of wills between us, but I agree with above - when I can be positive and find ways to give her a sense of control and independence then all goes much better! Give her choices where you can, set things up for her to 'win' and praise all her good efforts. Sometimes I end up just acknowledging the anger and frustration between us and that can also seem to help defuse things and make her realise I don't want to be in control all the time! Also models how I would want her to behave - to admit my wrongs and compromise.

Nothing wrong with showering a bit of extra love here and there too! Can go a long way.

I could be reading about my DD8 & the posts about turning things around have really struck a chord. There have been too many tears & not enough laughter in our house. DH & I need to try & cut DD some slack ( although obviously there are certain behaviours that she needs to know are not acceptable). It's bloody hard work, isn't it? I hope things get better for you 🙂

Are you the same poster who's child had lost their trust a few weeks back and had a tendency to over punish?
I think you should let go of the trust thing, she is 8, her brain isn't mature yet so she acts impulsively. It's perfectly normal, don't sweat the small stuff. Give her a big cuddle and explain for the unmpteen time what you want. Ask her to help clean out if you want consequences.

I'm going to echo a PP asking if anything has changed in her life recently. I went through a startlingly similar thing with my DS at 7 (medication, chewing gum, random shit nicked and stashed under his pillow). Turned out 2 particularly charming lads in his class were low level bullying him, it took a while to identify though as it was subtle enough that he didn't really have the words to explain it. It came to a head when he took some of my jewellery into school and stashed it in his drawer. It was heirloom stuff, not worth much in monetary terms but irreplaceable. After that he was referred for a few sessions of 'drawing and talking' with the school senco and the issue got resolved.
Could be worth considering as it's quite attention seeking behaviour

Pick your battles, OP. If you go on and on about little things like this, then you will be utterly ignored over the big, really important things.

My DH was micromanaged like this as a child. He has always maintained with our children that they NEED to be allowed to get away with it sometimes. Because otherwise there is no space at all for them to learn for themselves what is wrong and what is right - to learn how to be sorry for what they have done and therefore make an informed decision to not do it again, rather than simply, drearily, be told that they are bad, wrong, have 'broken your trust' (no, they have broken your rules. Please understand the difference.) and end up angry and not caring. Because it will be seen as not their problem.

I think I'm reasonably strict but your rules are crazy. You are going to stress yourself out royally if you don't pick your battles. They're kids...who care if she draws a little on sheets. You can buy new ones. Who care if she takes Rennies... you can take her pocket money to buy more!!

If she's doing well at school and generally well behaved give her a break!! It must be stifling living in your house with your petty rules. And again, this comes from someone who has rules of her own!

I think Barbarian is right. She sounds v similar to my DD1, who is the same age. She is much 'better' for having more relaxed rules. If she feels hemmed in by restrictive boundaries, she often rebels surreptitiously in some small way, which I used to find infuriating. I have learned the hard way to do what a PP suggests, and take the reins off a bit, but make it clear that she will be dealing with any consequences, such as sorting out any mess. It has given her a sense of autonomy and responsibility, preferable to the skulking, secretive person hiding contraband in her knicker-drawer.

I would really cut out the discussions about "trust". She can't win with that unless she never does anything wrong again, so you're setting her up for failure right there. She's too young for that.

Lock away stuff that's dangerous like medicines.

Taking food and pens into her room isn't a massive deal really is it? I would also set up an area for her to draw and paint as she obviously enjoys this. Get her to clean up mess.

I would be bothered about her taking things out of my pencil case because it's disrespectful to take other people's belongings. So I would punish for that after explaining the importance of being respectful of other people's things.

She sounds EXACTLY like my DD1(8). Right down to the chewing gum stuck everywhere and the pens in her bed leaking ink! Why does she keep everything in her bed?? It's annoying, of course it is, but they're 8. I think you need to loosen up a little. Are you feeling ok? I know the little things bug me more when I'm feeling overwhelmed and stressed, it's like I focus on the small things I can control. She sounds like a good kid. Shaming her for breaking your rules will make her unhappy, and unhappy kids act out. Make sure she knows you love her unconditionally and let her mess up her sheets every now and then. Stop correcting and try connecting. Good luck. It's hard.

Thanks for the replies. The consensus seems to be that it’s not a big deal and I need to relax a bit, I guess I know this I just can’t help being bothered by it.

Their room is usually messy, there’s pen on the walls, stickers everywhere, I don’t insist on spotless rooms, I just don’t want ruined sheets. I can understand it’s no big deal and maybe it’s my problem and I’ll have to get over it, it just didn’t occur to me that I was unreasonable for not wanting pen marks all over the bed sheets.
I really didn’t think that not wanting the bed sheets to be ruined and not having food upstairs were crazy rules. There really aren’t a lot of other rules.
I think if I allowed food upstairs I would have to be a lot stricter with the tidiness of their room, as there’d be more potential for food crumbs/hidden scraps turning to mould and nastiness, so this seems the easier battle to fight.

Has anything changed? I am 8 months pregnant with my third child. She seems pretty excited about this and keen to meet her new brother. It’s easy to say that it’s not affecting her negatively but I suppose it could be. Nothing else has changed.
She never explains why she does things, she just looks guilty and goes quiet while I lecture…
I was a terribly defiant as a child too, well mostly as a teenager, and I’m aware that my being controlling is likely going to make her worse.
I’m happy to hear it could just be a stage, but I’m also concerned that it could be the start of worse, now it’s permanent markers, next it could be money or drugs. I realised I’m most likely getting ahead of myself here.

Yes I know the medicines should be locked away, the Anusol was on the high window sill in the bathroom, I didn’t know she could even see it. And the Rennies were under my pillow / easy access for pregnancy heartburn. The kids aren’t supposed to go in our room on their own, another issue we’re apparently having, but yes, since the incidents I’m more careful with leaving stuff in sight.

The stains won’t come out in the wash so I doubt there’s any point in making her scrub at them.
I guess I’m lucky there is no ‘major stuff’ yet. I do worry I’m just making it worse, though. I don’t want to force her to get better at being more sneaky, and I don’t want to damage our relationship more so when there’s serious issues she needs to be able to come to me with, she feels she can’t.
But it’s the fact she made the forethought to decide to take the permanent marker and hide it, that seems worse than random, impulsive, thoughtless kid stuff. It worries me that it’s an issue that needs to be nipped in the bud.

Fleshmarketclose and CauliflowerSqueeze – I do all sorts of crafts with them, we have loads of pens, felt tips etc that they have access to whenever they want, our dining room is basically a craft room, I just don’t want them in their bedroom anymore, as ruined sheets just annoys me!

BarbarianMum - I was expecting more replies like this and I’m happy to be told I’m OTT, it’s reassuring somewhat that she’s normal and it’s no big deal and just my issues.
I don’t want my nagging to make things worse, I just want to be able to trust her and don’t know if these little things matter so much in the grand scheme of things, I just can’t help being annoyed but think I need to relax a little more.

tigercub50 – Yes, thanks. She is a good kid, really. I think I expect too much too much and need to let some things go.

EatTheChocolateTeapot - Nope, not me. she is 8, her brain isn't mature yet so she acts impulsively. It's perfectly normal, don't sweat the small stuff. Give her a big cuddle and explain for the unmpteen time what you want Simple advice but makes sense, thanks.

I don't think the rules are the issue necessarily, more the severe lecturing and shaming when she breaks a rule. Of course there needs to be consequences for rule breaking but telling a little kid that they've lost your trust for eating crisps upstairs or some kind of minor infraction is OTT. YOU know you love her bones no matter what she does, but she's likely internalising a message that she's untrustworthy, she lets people down, makes her mummy sad. The worse she feels about herself, the worse her behaviour is likely to be.

Could she be having issues at school that is making her act out at home? Also if her sibling rivalry has increased recently it migh

Whoops. Might be due to the impending arrival of your new baby (congats by the way). This is a massive change that unsettles kids even if they outwardly appear to be excited. She's likely worried about losing you, losing your love, and needs lots of reassurance.

If she's basically a good kid, focus on that. A good kid. Not a perfect kid. Give her space to make mistakes - the bedsheets will still function as bedsheets even with pen on them. They're not ruined, they just won't look so nice.

I was a worse thief and a worse liar and i was more defiant than your dd at 8. I grew into an extremely sensible teen and a law abiding grown up (albeit one who still leaves crumbs in bed, and sometimes reads through the night when i should be asleep and doesn't change put of work clothes when i get home). And I'm close to my mum - i just don't agree with her that sneaking the odd biscuit is a sign of moral turpitude.

Your rules are perfectly reasonable. Clearly she's at a stage where she's pushing boundaries. Just talking to her isn't going to have an effect. You need simple punishment and reward. Clear rules and expectations on both sides e.g. if there's something she wants to eat, she asks for it and eats it downstairs. If she doesn't do this, then there will be a consequence e.g. losing screen time. The punishment doesn't have to be long or arduous, but it has to mean something to her.

But also, rewards. Star charts or something equivalent. At the end of the day, have a SHORT chat. If there's been no problem with her behaviour, she gets a star. If she's done something wrong but admitted it straightaway she gets a star. And agree at the beginning what the rewards are - maybe a special treat at the weekend, or whatever.

Not sure about the bedsheets. Sure, they will still function as bedsheets, but by allowing her to deface them without consequence, is this not signalling that she does not have to consider the value or care of an item. It could start with bedsheets and progress. I would nip that in the bud.

Is she 'defacing' them ie spoiling them on purpose? Or accidentally getting pen on them as a result of writing/drawing whilst lying on the bed? Big difference imo.

Trust? What is this "trust" of an 8yo you are talking about ?

8yo's are generally impulsive, have little thought of consequences and think they know it all

I didn't trust mine as far as I could throw them at that age. She is kicking back because your expectations are too high.

Punish each small misdemeanour appropriately, remove what she is not allowed to have completely and don't take the whole thing so personally.

And yes, even if the stain doesn't come out, you can get her to try and get it out. Otherwise there is no consequence.