Is it possible for atheists and theists to discuss their world views without one ooh t of view or the other feeling anything along a scale from dissatisfied to furious?

[BertrandRussell]

Theists get patronising, then defensive, atheists get exasperated, then angry. Is there another way? Or is it just completely impossible and not even worth trying?

PLace marking

I cannot trust my doctor or midwife to give me and my unborn child the care we need, because I know they have killed other people's children at the same age.

What, you think a midwife is just going to sneakily abort your child without you noticing? You don't trust them not to perform an abortion without your permission? Really?

No school teaches that God is not real. All schools teach the whole "Some people believe...."

C8, this is the relevant passage about daily acts of collective worship from "Collective Worship and Religious Education: A Guide for Governors." It doesn't vary by area (within England at least:)

All schools must provide a daily act of collective worship for all pupils. The aim of collective worship is to develop pupils socially, morally, spiritually and culturally. The 1994 legal framework documentation regarding collective worship still stands. Added to this is the recent
requirement to promote British values as part of SMSC (Ofsted, September 2014, DfE, November 2014). Free schools and academies have the same requirement to provide a daily act of collective worship as maintained and faith schools, as part of their funding agreement. Some schools struggle with the requirement that collective worship is broadly Christian.

I agree with a lot of what C8H10N4O2 said. I don't think religion still has the influence people think. My local schools don't have a broadly religious act of worship. Even most of the faith ones, from what I can tell. I don't think CofE bishops in the HOL vote very differently from anyone else. I can understand how you might not want them there, but I'd be surprised if they made a difference.

Isittheholidays, I think that if your conscience prevents you from carrying out key functions of a job, then you shouldn't do that job. So a vegan shouldn't work in abattoir, a pacifist shouldn't work in weapons manufacture, and someone who thinks of abortion as murder shouldn't work in sexual health. As far as cakes go, would you be happy for your local atheist bakery to refuse to sell you a cake for a baptism, first communion, wedding etc because it was against their conscience?

So as a believing catholic, I can't be a GP, because I may have to be involved in abortion

utter nonsense. The law permits conscientious objection but you must pass the patient to another doctor.

I can't be a pharmacist or a midwife for the same reason
.
Again utter nonsense but you must make sure there is provision for those you want these services.

I can't be a registrar because I would have to register marriages between 2 people of the same sex

Yes, that one is correct - tough.

My doing that makes me a part it.
I cannot to talk to colleagues outside of work who ask about my beliefs because I may then be sacked for expressing them (outside the workplace)

nope. Employment law protects you. This has no bearing on your work as long as you leave your religion at the work place door.

I can't be a baker, because I may have to produce cakes with slogans offensive to me on them. (Yes I know someone who has given up her cake making business to avoid this)

. Actually I think that decision was wrong - as long as there were other bakers available. Peter Tatchell thinks it was wrong too.

I'm wondering how my kids are going to actually earn a living.

Everytime I see a doctor or a midwife I have to explain again that no, I don't want contraception, and please don't talk about that in front of my children

I don't think a doctor has ever discussed contraception with me except when I had specifically asked them too. So far as midwives- tough - if you think midwives should not discuss this just to avoid offending you that is incredibly selfish. Many women need advice on this post partum.

Everytime I see a midwife when pregnant I have to tell them again that, no, I don't want to kill my own child

Bollocks. No midwife is going to raise the question of an abortion unless a patient wants advice on it.

I cannot trust my doctor or midwife to give me and my unborn child the care we need, because I know they have killed other people's children at the same age

That is just offensive. A doctor or nurse may have provided abortion services if requested by a patient.

Nor can I set up a hospital where these things don't happen because that would be discrimination. (Even if it didn't take public funds)

I'm sure there is nothing to stop you setting up a 100% privately funded health clinic which provides maternity and child care only but not contractception or abortion services. You are not discriminating - you don't have to cover all medical care.

*My grandparents and their fellow Churchgoers, spent lots of money building a school and coming to an agreement with the government of the day for shared funding, so their children could receive their education in a religious context.
Non-Catholic think this is unfair. Well, get together, pay up and come an arrangement with the government, like we have.
My children are still taught atheistic rubbish at their catholic school, the law says they have to be. I know many people who want to close the catholics schools and set up our own (without public funding)where we teach what we actually know to be true. (That's also wouldn't be allowed in law. )

None of us can avoid our beliefs impinging on others. That is what happens if we want to live together and share resources.

Re Catholic schools , yes the state took over the buildings decades ago without paying for them. The saving was long wiped out by years of maintenance, repair and provision of teachers.

What exactly is "atheistic rubbish"? Would that be sex education? If so you can opt out.

Ontop

Yes I appreciate what the law is supposed to apply across England - what I'm describing is the local practice. Its similar to practice in other areas I'm familiar with hence I'm wondering if there is significant regional variation in the implementation.
The social/moral bit is covered locally by doing 'thought for the day' style assemblies on ethical and cultural issues (but not every day) which I was fine with as I do think that has a place in education.

The 'promote British Values' aspect is something far more nebulous

You don't need to attend Church on a Sunday

Newsflash - you don't.

You can behave how you like as long as you are nice to people (and follow school rules and wear correct uniform)

Abiding by the law and being nice to people seems pretty ok to me.


The school I'm involved with gets round it in all sorts of ways by singing songs with a positive message that could be interpreted as broadly Christian, but the point is it's supposed to be happening. I don't have a problem with the ethics and morals. I'm a bit disturbed by the British values as it seems so Govian and very unclear.

isittheholidaysyet, how would you feel (how do you feel - I know some people are rude) if someone referred to your religious beliefs as 'Catholic rubbish'?

In any case, two of those three are not unique to atheism (the only 'tenet', to use religious terminology, is 'don't believe in deities'). And I don't think any of the three are part of the National Curriculum or the approach taken by most schools.

Yes, what sorts of behaviour are school children likely to indulge in that don't break the law and allow you to be nice to people but are against Catholic theology? I kind of struggle with this, to be honest.

I agree with a lot of what C8H10N4O2 said. I don't think religion still has the influence people think.

Can you accept, though, the perspective of non-Christians that it still does affect their lives in a number of ways, in ways they don't like?

I find it difficult when religious people tell non-religious people 'religion doesn't affect you as much as you think'. It's like me, as a white person, telling a black person 'racism isn't as bad as you say it is!'

I'm a bit disturbed by the British values as it seems so Govian and very unclear

When this came in I was reminded of the Section 28 rules under Thatcher. Yes very Govian.

Can you accept, though, the perspective of non-Christians that it still does affect their lives in a number of ways, in ways they don't like?

As PoI I am broadly aligned with the point of view from a non religious perspective.
This is because my observations have been that local religion reflects local custom in ways that make it often impossible to split out - which is symptom and which is cause?

There's a British Values notice board in a fairly unnoticeable corner of the school. When DD saw it, she pointed out that the British Values were almost the same as the Elements of Harmony In My Little Pony. So I now think that we should embrace Equestrian Values instead.

@FreeNiki no you don't. That's what free will is all about...choice. Could there be consequences? Sure,but that's a whole other issue and a massive debate.
For example I don't think a decent human being would be denied access to heaven , simply because they don't believe in God.
I also don't think a religious person doing evil acts or being mean to someone because a book (whichever that may be ) told them so will automatically be allowed into heaven simply because they are religious.

You can behave how you like as long as you are nice to people (and follow school rules and wear correct uniform)

How does that contravene religious beliefs? What could a school kid do that is nice,kind and follows rules that is against Catholicism?

Broomstick

I was governor in charge of British Values. I still don't really know what it is we were trying to do. Oh let's all be nice to each other. Because in Britain we've always been good at being nice to each other, haven't we? Um...

Just found this from a governor visit I did at the time, about what BV are: The social development of children can be assessed by their:
... acceptance and engagement with the fundamental British values of democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs; they develop and demonstrate skills and attitudes that will allow them to participate fully in and contribute positively to life in modern Britain.

what does that actually mean, in practice?

I like the word Govian. I think that could come into common usage.

As a Catholic you cannot behave how you like. You have to attempt to behave in a moral way. (In this situation by 'moral', I mean the morals according to catholic teaching...I know other morals are available.) It is not enough just to be nice to people.

I apologise for the 'atheist rubbish' phrase.
(Yes, I regularly hear 'catholic rubbish' or similar)

Whilst I don't believe a midwife would abort my child without permission, I have no confidence that someone who has just aborted a 23 week old 'bunch of cells', can then turn round and treat the next 23 week old foetus or live born baby as a human being.

Yes. everytime I go to the doctor they ask about contraception.

Am I wrong about the doctor thing? I thought the right of conscience and ability to pass on to another doctor had gone. I would be very pleased to hear it hasn't.

I thought a pharmacist has to dispense morning-after-pill.

I don't think midwives do turnarounds like that between abortion clinics and live deliveries. I think you'll find a paediatrician on call who will be resuscitating and making decisions about the best treatment for very premature babies.

Yes. everytime I go to the doctor they ask about contraception

You either have a very peculiar doctor or possibly one who is concerned that you may have health issues arising from multiple pregnancies.

Am I wrong about the doctor thing? I thought the right of conscience and ability to pass on to another doctor had gone. I would be very pleased to hear it hasn't

You are wrong.

I thought a pharmacist has to dispense morning-after-pill. It is one source of it. If you were the sole pharmacist on duty you would have to prescribe it. The patient might not even be pregnant.

Call it "atheistic rubbish" if you like. Just say what you mean.

Incidentally, all the other things you list are wrong, and in one case wildly offensive to the medical profession. Oh, apart from the registrar thing.

"atheistic rubbish"..

At least there is some honesty on this thread.

can then turn round and treat the next 23 week old foetus or live born baby as a human being.

How ironic you believe that,when most(religious) anti abortions groups use medical advances and the amazing care that babies born so early get to lower abortion limits.