Is it possible for atheists and theists to discuss their world views without one ooh t of view or the other feeling anything along a scale from dissatisfied to furious?

[BertrandRussell]

Theists get patronising, then defensive, atheists get exasperated, then angry. Is there another way? Or is it just completely impossible and not even worth trying?

'I think those are pretty important, don't you?'

I didn't say they weren't. I pointed out like a lot of things in this country the system needs updating and reviewing rather than a constant 'people of faith..' rhetoric

I asked how else people of faiths lives 'impinged' on you other than the archaic schools admission policy and the equally archaic Hol. Can you give any?

I actually like it that people have religious views. It's extremist views I have an issue with. Whether they be extreme atheist or religious

Extremists won't listen and like to undermine through rhetoric and bullying. It's the same with political views...especially on MN

"in my mind includes a non-acceptance of people being free to hold their own beliefs and any resulting action taken on people for simply holding a belief rather than what they have actually done."

I don't think anyone on here would disagree with that! Do you think it's happening in this country?

Bertrand, no I don't but I think it has the potential to happen. When Theresa May talks about 'ripping up' human rights, even in a response to horrific acts of terrorism, it is extremely unsettling. Yes, certain extreme, quasi religious ideologies, allow for a climate where terrible acts are committed but so do police type states. I think legal process and respecting human rights are really crucial for a fair civilised society.

'I actually like it that people have religious views'

Yes me too. I enjoy living in a diverse tolerant society where we accept other people's beliefs even if we don't hold them ourselves.

I would like to kick all the Lord's and bishops out of the HoL and have elected people. I would also like to have an equal playing field regarding education and get rid of grammars, faith schools and private schools however even I'm aware these systems have been in place decades and there's no point blaming the unfairness purely on people of faith.

You refer to 'evidence' regarding development of these values, suggesting you are right according to the available facts. It is not something that, I believe, can be proved.

Actually that's not what I was suggesting - I wasn't putting forward an alternative thesis, rather saying that there is evidence that undermines yours being factual. It's a subtle distinction but important. I'm not saying I'm right - I'm saying I don't think you are. This is probably symptomatic of a broader disconnect on faith/non-faith - some are expecting people to be taking a position and saying 'I'm right', while others are declining to take a position and are rather saying 'no, based on my evaluation, I don't think you are.' It's the difference between the active (faith) and passive (atheistic) states on this issue.

Back to 'Christian values' - given that evidence and as you say uncertainty, there is an element of trying to impose your beliefs on others in describing these shared values as 'Christian values' to non-Christians.

It's an issue of how it comes across and whether it's in the interests of shared understanding and respect. It's not asking you to stop believing that these values are uniquely Christian - it's asking you to understand that others disagree and that they have evidence for doing so, and that they find the continued promulgation of these shared values as 'Christian' both a little offensive and quite overbearing and othering.

"no point blaming the unfairness purely on people of faith"

Of course there isn't. But I would like to explore your assertion that people of faith know that faith schools are unfair but while they are there they will continue to use them. This has shocked me rather. I always assumed that people of faith genuinely believed them to be fair because otherwise how could they bring themselves to take advantage of them?

Jassy I have, personally, put forward no views regarding the source of goodness/morality. This is a subject that I think cannot scientifically be determined and belongs within the realms of belief. I have beliefs but refer to them as such. Your posts suggest you think I would or am portray/ing my beliefs as factual when I am saying the opposite. It is no surprise to me that beliefs portrayed as fact offends.

However because I hold very strong beliefs, my faith can come across as fact. In my head what I believe to be true, is, unless proved otherwise. The language we use can easily betray our beliefs. I do try to be careful - remember not to use factual language concerning belief. However, I have read, women (in particular) often get criticised on this, using personalised statements such as 'I believe' means their perspective is perceived as less solid than when less personalised language such as 'this shows' is used.

Yes faith schools are an outdated system that needs changing. As are grammars, private school etc im>

I would like to 'explore' how you said earlier religion is fine as long as it doesn't impinge on you. Can you give me any other examples other than an archaic school admission policy and an archaic HoL set up that 'impinges' on you personally, or is just these 2 things?

Actually that's not what I was suggesting

Jassy, I have noticed you do use quite authoritative statements in your posts, such as the one above. I think language can suggest things beyond the intention of the person using it. I perceived a belief from you that you thought you were right, probably due to the authoritative language used in your posts, you appeared to have an expectation that I was suggesting you were wrong. In reality, as far as I can see, we seem to agree, there is not enough evidence to conclusively claim one way or another apart from expressing a belief.

Actually, myrtle, I'd like you to address the ones I have given already before giving you any more. How come people of faith carry on using faith schools if they know they are unfair?

"Jassy, I have noticed you do use quite authoritative statements in your posts"

I think it's OK to be authoritative about statements you have made yourself, isn't it?

Bertrand of course it is ok to be authoritative. I was merely making an observation, by way of explanation, concerning the way language is perceived. No value judgements there. Authoritative language certainly, in many cases, is positively beneficial - which I also acknowledge in my previous post.

Bertrand Maybe they are hypocrites like me

I use private schools. I am left wing. My DC has SEN so I had to adjust my views sharpish.

I guess what I am saying when it comes to your children most people if they are I a position to do do will choice what they believe is the best option for them.

'Actually, myrtle, I'd like you to address the ones I have given already before giving you any more'

People use faith schools because they are there. I'm sure a small percentage choose them for the faith aspect but most use them because they are there.

I'm gathering by your refusal/inability to answer that other than outdated school admissions and outdated HoL other people beliefs don't impinge on you at all do they?

Why not start a thread 'why in 2017 do we still have faith schools and unelected house of lords' rather than pretend it's about beliefs?

" Bertrand Maybe they are hypocrites like me"

Yes. Well. They need to be a bit careful about occupying the moral high ground and dismissing people's concerns about the way faith impinges on other people then, don't they?

How come people of faith carry on faith schools when theu know they are unfair?

OP, I would have thought that of all the posters on MN, you would understand people using the schools available even of they think they are unfair.

'Yes. Well. They need to be a bit careful about occupying the moral high ground and dismissing people's concerns about the way faith impinges on other people then, don't they?'

So.Just school admissions then? oh and bishops.Yes your life is very impinged on bertrand. Poor you . My life is very impinged on because we don't have a local grammar, I hear they have them elsewhere? does everyone with access to a grammar know they are very unfair and are impinging on me?!

There was a story in the press not too long ago about a pharmacist who refused to serve a customer due to their (pharmacist's, not customer's) religious beliefs. And apparently according to the Ethics Code, they were within their rights to refuse. That would impinge on one's rights.

I did not apply to the high achieving local faith school for my children. I see it in the same way as my parents, who did not put me in for the 11+ because they did not agree with selection, and so sent me to a non selective school. It would be hard for me to argue against a system while using it, and I do not agree with faith schools.

Katharine yes that would impinge on rights. Something someone is choosing to do rather just an old school admission system that's been in place for decades.
I do agree that medical staff should leave their beliefs at the door when they go to work, as should any people working on tills who refuse to serve alcohol its all very silly and down to mismanagement imo.

The problem I have with Abrahamic religions is that it all began with Abraham hearing God to speak to him and tell him to cut his own foreskin off and murder his own son.

No one religious thinks that is absolutely crazy. By the sound of it Abraham had schizophrenia which caused him to behave that way in hearing voices.

If God appeared to you today and told you to kill your children as a show of devotion, would you do it? Is a question I love to ask Christians and if not, Why not!

Myrtle. Just checking. You do know that people of faith have access to a third more schools than other people, don't you?

And that people of faith from the next village can leapfrog over a child from a non faith family living next door to a faith school?

If God appeared to you today and told you to kill your children as a show of devotion, would you do it? Is a question I love to ask Christians and if not, Why not!

I would not because I believe in free will as well. So if God or anyone claiming to be God's messenger asked me to do anything that is against my own moral code and will I would not do it, and what will be will be.

'You do know that people of faith have access to a third more schools than other people, don't you?'
Yes I certainly agreed this outdated schools admission policy needs reviewing. I don't agree with any preferential treatment for education be it grammar, faith etc.
However I was interested in other examples of how peoples beliefs 'impinge' on you?
Anyway katharina actually gave one.

Katharina There was a story in the press not too long ago about a pharmacist who refused to serve a customer due to their (pharmacist's, not customer's) religious beliefs

If this is in the UK do you have a cite for it? I've heard this a lot but none have citations (other than on dodgy 'news' sites).