Is it possible for atheists and theists to discuss their world views without one ooh t of view or the other feeling anything along a scale from dissatisfied to furious?

[BertrandRussell]

Theists get patronising, then defensive, atheists get exasperated, then angry. Is there another way? Or is it just completely impossible and not even worth trying?

I think there is 'religionism' involved as well, if I can phrase it that way. The same tendency that sees all Muslims as potential terrorists sees all Christians as bigoted- homophobic, judgemental, and all the other experiences people have been unfortunate to be subjected to. Some of them are. Some atheists are too.

Why does not being something have to have a name?

This resonated very much with me. One thing I do resent quite a bit is the cultural perspective that religion and belief is a default, and therefore that I need a defined position.

In response to Merchant's question, I think there is a subtle distinction here, and I think the way you have phrased it reflects the dominance of religion and in particular Christianity in our culture.

I don't believe in any gods. I lack belief in them in the same way I lack belief in many other things I don't think exist. It is impossible to draw comparisons without offending people's beliefs, I think, so hopefully my point is clear. Gods occupy approximately as much of my headspace as other things I think are invented, unless forced upon me by the state (such as through my children's education, or through the structure of the legislature) or through an area I'm interested in (the interplay of religion with evolution or human history).

So I don't think it's a firm belief any more than I have a firm belief in the non-existence anything else for which there is no evidence. It's an absence of belief, not belief. Does that make sense?

I'm Atheist and don't get angry discussing religion. I find it fascinating, and quite enjoy people talking about the rites rituals teachings and celebrations. I've never really gotten into an argument about religion because I don't understand enough about faith (having none myself) to have a strong enough standpoint to defend. I respect people's beliefs&ask questions to help understand them if it's appropriate. I have tended to find people respect the fact I do not believe as I'm upfront about it. I don't like people trying to convince me though although that has only happened a couple of times

One thing I think I have learnt, is not to expect people to think the same way as myself, at all. If I don't understand their motivations / opinions I am not shocked. This can be feel lonely though.

I am a Christian and I know a lot of my Christian beliefs are countercultural in modern society. I will talk about my beliefs, happily, but don't really see the point in the aggressive type of debates and point scoring. I am not interested in losing my faith.

Belief does not necessarily require proof, since it is belief and not established fact. I am allowed to hold beliefs, although it seems some people do not like this and want to argue concerning proof regarding belief and I am about this.

"Belief does not necessarily require proof, since it is belief and not established fact. I am allowed to hold beliefs, although it seems some people do not like this and want to argue concerning proof regarding belief"

I don't- I think people should believe whatever they like - so long as it has no impact on anyone else. That's usually the tricky bit.

I don't believe in any gods. I lack belief in them in the same way I lack belief in many other things I don't think exist.

Yes. I don't believe in ghosts or second sight or horoscopes.

@BertrandRussell if you look around this site you will find loads of people that use their beliefs to bash,convert or feel superior to other people be that by religion,child rearing,working,behaviour,language whatever.
I'm a smoker and have loads of non smoking friends.
I'm a believer and have atheist friends.
I bottle fed and have friends who have breast fed for 2 yrs.
I'm a meat eater and have vegan and vegetarian friends.
And so on.

Some people just suck and are dicks regardless of what they believe in or what they choose to preach.

So, if you don't have a belief in God, even if you don't feel particularly passionate or committed to that non-belief, you are an atheist.

I think that idea is flawed. I agree with Jassy. I, personally, have an absence of belief. To say that "if I don't believe in God" implies that believing in God is the default and if someone doesn't the problem lies with them. Which is probably part of the reason that some people reject religion.

I recognise religion and I recognise the right people have to believe. But when not believing is turned into a blanket labelling of people as atheists....that gets my back up. Which is quite a feat because I have been pretty laid back about this topic in my life so far.

rock, I am a Christian and have no concept regarding belief in God being the 'default'. This type of thing is unprovable. It is not an issue that concerns me, really. Makes no difference to anything really.

"rock, I am a Christian and have no concept regarding belief in God being the 'default'"

I read this as meaning "default in our society. You have to opt out of at the very least nominal Christianity. And Christian privilege remains very much a "thing".

Bertrand' right, from my perspective. Look at the way atheism is often described - you don't believe in God (by which people tend to mean the Christian god). People talk of a nation built on 'Christian values', as if those values didn't exist before and outside Christianity.

The fact that atheism is a thing that needs a word, and that people are expected to be categorised in terms of their stance on belief in deities is a demonstration of how much 'religion' is viewed as something one has to have a position on, akin to race, sex or sexuality. However, those three are physical states of being (though of course not themselves uncomplicated). Religion is different as it's about thought, but in our society exists as something where everyone is expected to be able to 'identify' as a particular category.

To use Lass's comparators from earlier, people who do not believe in ghosts don't require a word for that state of being, and are no regularly asked what their stance on ghosts is.

It raises interesting questions about whether there is a human predisposition for religious belief, which is fascinating from a science and history standpoint. But no less frustrating to live with.

I'm under the impression that atheism is a deliberate choice to say 'there is no God'. Agnosticism is 'I don't know whether or not there is God'. Theism 'there is God'. I think most atheists and theists occasionally wonder at some point if they may be wrong.

My experience has been that most agnostics don't really think about it very much. Atheists tend to be more considered and confirmed in their opinion.

What nominal Christianity do you have to opt out of, Bert? I know lots of places you can opt in. I don't think DH has ever needed to opt out.

There are RE lessons in school, but they are learning about others to promote understanding. There are assemblies at school, but most schools don't have them everyday and they are not even nominally Christian in the vast majority. Marriage is secular unless you seek out a faith wedding, funerals the same. I'm not sure it's the default...

To use Lass's comparators from earlier, people who do not believe in ghosts don't require a word for that state of being, and are no regularly asked what their stance on ghosts is

And no one has ever told me that if I just opened up my heart I would find that I believe in great aunt Gerty's ghost or Zeus or Thor for that matter yet I have been told I'm closing myself off to the Abrahamaic god.

I think a pre- disposition to believe exists for many people but that pre- disposition equally does not exist in many others.

I'm a Christian and have always felt uncomfortable at churches which are evangelical. Some of them advocated shouting at people in the street, because saving them was the kindest thing to do... I quickly find churches (I've moved a lot with my job), where they are accepting of all. In fact one church I went to asked me when I was going to break up with DH as he 'wasn't a christian'
Jesus made a point of hanging out with everybody and not those who believed in him. Anyway.
I have had many debates with atheists, agnostics, people who follow different religions etc and totally understand where they are coming from as I used to be agnostic myself (I don't think I was ever an atheist).

Christian values means something fairly specific to me. It's about 'who is my neighbour?', that we have a responsibility to love and care for all, not only those who are closest to us. It is about self sacrifice and generosity, rather than justice and fairness. Forgiveness.

Christian values are distinct from utilitarianism, for example, and other values systems where the clan is valued above the individual, or the clan's well being is more important than individual integrity. It is perfectly acceptable in some historical cultures to do whatever it takes to ensure the betterment of your family above others. Success is the only criteria. Some cultures valued 'heroic' behaviour which we would be revolted by.

We tend to think that the qualities referred to as 'Christian values' are universal, but they are, or were, not. They were radical.

Well, technically, you can't be an atheist- because of the whole not proving a negative thing. Even Richard Dawkins will say he is an agnostic because of the microscopically small chance that it turns out there is a god. I liken it to not being 100% sure that the sun will rise tomorrow.i know it will, but I have to entertain the possibility that it won't. So atheist is shorthand for saying all that. Christian privilege? Well, Christians have a choice of a third more schools for a start. The Christian perspective is always present in lawmaking because of the automatic presence of Bishops in the Lords. This is obviously particularly significant in health and social pilicies- things like abortion, stem cell research and end of life care. You have to be a nominal Christian to take a full part in the life of any state school-if I don't want my child to pray for whatever reason, my child has to be taken out of assembly. And that's just a few examples.

I think Bertrand that your question to pickle about if it is possible for believers to frame the way they talk about faith in such a way as not to 'include' non believers in that worldview is interesting and I am doing some thinking about that. I think what I said on the other thread was difficult for you because I did not see eaten my worldview from anyone else, I included humanity in my conception of God as creator etc, and to you that was offensive because I did not separate out my own belief from speaking it over others. At least that's what it seems to me happened? What I was attempting to do was explain where I was coming from without dragging people without faith into my worldview but it kind of misfired

But like pickle said, I'm not sure there is a way to frame that language. Pickle used a creationist example, but any would do. I believe that Jesus lived and died and rose for humanity; if I say that I only think that is for some then that would reduce and minimise my belief, but if I say for all then that may appear arrogant. It's really difficult... Just pondering here. How would you prefer we frame things like this?

Agree with pickle on Christian values, too. Our western worldview is pretty close to the heart of the message of Christianity, but many cultures in different ages have taken a very different route.

On your original quesition: I do think atheists and people of faith can have friendly, open discussions, but that's when there is a choice to be respectful, not to belittle the other and to be kind. The godless atheist thing is the kind of thing I might say to my atheist mates but we jibe each other a lot in this way, they call me the religious nutter in the corner, but it's all in good spirit and we love each other. However, if such a comment is made and out of character or not a joke then I'd be surprised and upset too.

I'd like to think that we could achieve what the other thread set out to do here on MN.

I think 'see eaten' was meant to be separate, but not completely sure...

That's helpful, Bert. I'd not thought about the bishops, and I have seen the school question slightly differently. I'll have to think about that.
I'm not sure about the effect on health and social care. I think the range of opinions among Christians is pretty wide, and not that different from non Christians so I'm not convinced it has a big influence. I'll keep an eye out for it, though.

Well, here's mine. My son is at a CofE school. My choices for a state education for him were our most local school (a CofE school) or a failing undersubscribed school (also CofE) about 40 minutes away on the other side of the borough. Our next closest schools are also faith schools, all of which take large intakes from across and outside the borough. We have a shortage of school places. Zero chance of getting into a community school.

Given I can't quite afford 13 years of private school for two children, my opportunities not to have state-sponsored religion affecting my life and the lives of my children are limited.

And there is compulsory Christianity in non faith schools too. Although not as much.

Pickle- it is pretty unlikely that 25 bishops are going to be in favour of euthanasia, stem cell research and more liberal abortion laws.......

I admit to being no expert but why is the HoL full of unelected people full stop really. Bishops or not why do these unelected people have any sway whatsoever?

Agree with pickle on Christian values, too. Our western worldview is pretty close to the heart of the message of Christianity, but many cultures in different ages have taken a very different route.

But the idea that they are unique to or started with Christ (or even the Judaic tradition) isn't born out either by anthropology and ancient history, or by the many non-western cultures that embraced similar values.

Leaving quite alone the fact that what we currently view as 'Christian values' are quite different to what have been described in that way over the last millennium and a half.

I'm an atheist religion is one of those things I don't discuss apart from with very close friends or family. I don't have a problem with theists as long as they don't tell me I'm going to burn in hell etc. I really don't like religious supremacy.