To be frustrated that we can't live on our own land....

[DoggyDay1]

Simply that, very much first world problem of course, but getting planning permission to live in any type of dwelling on our land is just ridiculous, yet all around us housing developers seem to sweep aside all the rules and do as they please. We farm the land, live self suffienctly off it, we're up there all the time and back and forth twice a day every day to see to animals, but not allowed to build there. I keep looking at different options but unless we plough 1000s in on a high risk of no success we've little hope. Basic message was if we were richer we could buy ourselves round the rules but as we're a normal family, who just happen to try and live in an environmentally friendly way, we've little hope.

It's a nightmare getting agricultural land re-zoned as residential (which is basically what you are looking for, OP) and so it should be. If you really think that everyone else rides roughshod over the rules while you are victimised, gather some evidence and get an inquiry going. I'm not saying it is beyond the realms of possibility. But no one is going to let you build on agricultural land because you think you deserve to. Did no one explain how hard it would be to get permission before you bought the land?! I've had to move to the other end of the country to afford a house with land because trying to do it any other way is more expensive and extremely stressful.

pork.ahdb.org.uk/environment-buildings/pig-buildings-housing-development/planning-and-development/agricultural-workers-dwellings/

I'm intrigued that any planner told you if you were richer you could buy your way round planning. and when I say intrigued I mean disbelieving
There are valid reasons why a larger development could get planning and your's can't.
Also as a PP said, you must have been aware you were paying for greenbelt land and not residential - use some of that saving to finance your planning battle but unless you can prove 'need'; 'agricultural use' or 'previous home' on the site then the planners are unlikely to go against the local plan.

You need to consult an independent planning consultant, not one of the council ones.

And be prepared to pay for some good advice if you want to try and get around the rules.

Which are there for a reason.

The OP does not say the land is designated as Green Belt.

OP has never said she bought the land expecting to be able to build on it, for all we know the family has owned it for years. She's grumping about the way that rich people (and big developers) can afford to throw money at the planning process until the local authorities give in. Usually because an appeal is threatened and the local councils tend to buckle at that point as they can't afford to pay costs if they lose. That's certainly the way the last three unwanted developments of retirement apartments has got through in our attractive market town. They all go to downsizers from London, they're utterly unaffordable for locals. The new residents then get all surprised that they can't get appointments at the doctor's surgery and lower paid jobs are unfilled - because no one can afford to live here unless they inherited their home or are so rich they wouldn't dream of working for less than £25 an hour.

If you were farming the land commercially as a business you would not have an issue obtaining PP with an ag tie. That is a fact. What kind of farm do you have?

rich people (and big developers) can afford to throw money at the planning process until the local authorities give in
This is sort of the way it works. I have a close relative who was senior in a planning dept and basically big companies and wealthy people just keep costing the council lots of money by going back to appeal after appeal until the council can't afford to do it any more and has to give in.

If you were farming the land commercially as a business you would not have an issue obtaining PP with an ag tie. That is a fact. What kind of farm do you have?

This isn't actually fact I'm afraid. Friends of mine were farmers with acres++ of land with both cattle and sheep. They initially had a caravan and lived on the land before applying for planning permission to build. Many, many, many years before there had been a farmhouse in the exact spot the caravan was in, but that no longer existed in any form. They were turned down again and again. In disgust, they eventually decided to move to France and have been farming there for around 25 years now and have been much better off for it.

The rules are no different now to that period in the 90s.

www.permaculture.co.uk/articles/how-get-planning-permission-non-development-land Is this any help? A friend of ours managed to get permission for a temporary accommodation on his woodlands as he had to be able to mind his charcoal making clamps 24hours a day when he was producing. If you have something that requires constant minding on your land you are more likely to be granted premission for a structure.

TattyCat I'm a chartered surveyor and have worked with thousands of ag ties so as nice as your friends' story is, I'll take my own expertise and knowledge of T&C planning Act over your tale of the river bank. Ag ties are fairly standard with commercially viable agricultural units- whether it is commercially viable is another matter- lots of hobby farmers won't qualify.

OP I don't suppose you're in Wales? If so, One Planet Development would be the obvious way to go. If not, join the One Planet group and lobby for similar legislation in England? (Or move to Wales . . .?)

I do wonder if you were sold a pup, OP? When we were looking, two estate agents, tried to get us to consider land with no buildings and told us it would be 'easy' to get planning permission, that there 'loads of there people that had done the same thing locally and that set a precedent'. Those sods should be shot!

Sadik, wasn't a OnePlanet development featured on Grand Designs?

To those who suggest we just brought the land, we've run our farm for 15 years, owned it for 5 years and it's been in the family for over 100 years. We've 28 acres, so I guess falls between hobby and commercial, we met with a planning guy from the local council who was just really obstructive. We turn over around 14k a year off the land with my husband working pt there. I think we should be able to go for agricultural tie (with Dh working ft - but me being ft employed seemed to be an issue) with temporary planning but he just made it sound such a risk. Ps. Also not suggesting they take backhanders but for us 1000 planning processes each time which may not come off are a challenge, not so for big developers. He basically suggested if we continued to throw money we'd get there...

YY krusty - Jasmine & Simon Dale's plot at Lammas eco-village. You can build a normal rectangular sort of house though, funky shapes not obligatory

Doggy, do you know Chapter 7 / The Land is Ours? Unfortunately I think their DIY Planning Handbook is currently out of print but there is still quite a lot of info on their website.
If you are looking for a planning consultant who is perhaps more in tune with a small scale / smallholder / low-income-low-expenditure type lifestyle they would most likely be able to put you in touch with someone.

You might also find a subscription to The Land magazine helpful. The back half of the mag is what used to be the old Chapter 7 News, with reports on planning applications, decisions, developments in policy etc that are relevant to small scale / low impact agriculture.

Thank you Sadik, that's really helpful

OP you've had some ridiculous replies on the sarcastic 'poor you' front.

I think it's great what you're doing.
I also think it's true that big developers seem to have zero issue around my way buying fields and planning to get a few hundred homes on them. I can think of at least 6 estates done that way in the last time years. Sadly, they have the money and the push power to build as many homes as they like (despite in some cases residents groups having reasonable issues with lack of infrastructure etc).
Sadly, I think between councils preferring big developers and NIMBYs you're going to struggle.

OP I'm afraid you're not going to get planning permission for an agricultural dwelling based on 28 acres and a £14k turnover. You have a small holding and are hobby farmers, it is not a farm. An exception to general planning policy is made for an ag tie property when it can be proven that a) an entire income from a viable business can be supported by the agricultural holding (for example £20k profit per annum, not turnover) and b) you can prove that it is derogatory to the running of the business not to live on site.

The rules are there to prevent new dwellings in the countryside. Your theory would make it very easy for people to go out and buy a few acres at say £10,000 per acre, stick up a new build house and hey presto, lovely house in the countryside. The house would be worth less because ag tie houses have a reduced value due to the planning permission, but it would still cost a huge amount less to do it this way than to buy said house in the countryside off the market.

Also, how do the planners know that in 2 years time you're not going to claim that your 'farming business' is no longer viable and that you are therefore applying to lift the planning restriction and sell the house at full value. You would make a massive profit and leave another dwelling in the countryside that shouldn't be there.

I'm a rural surveyor and do heaps of this type of work. I hate to sound negative but I wouldn't waste your money on professional fees, I can't see many councils being able to justify this one.

Sorry, just to add on the point about developers and housing estates. This is completely different because the developers will be providing a huge amount of affordable housing (often 50%) and will usually being developing land within land allocated for development. Councils have housing targets to meet and the developers are engaging with them to provide this.

Believe it or not, many housing developments are only borderline profitable because of the amount of affordable housing that they are forced to provide. Lots of potential developments don't get built because the viability studies don't stack up.

Soery but i dont think your a 'normal family' if you own land.

I'd say it's very, very difficult, rather than impossible. Thinking of a couple of examples I know, Fivepenny Farm in West Dorset have two families on 43 acres, and the [[http://ecologicalland.coop/greenham-reach-smallholdings Ecological Land Co-op got planning permission for a cluster of 3 smallholdings between 5.5 - 8.5 acres in Devon. There are others, it's a long battle and generally involves a number of years in a temporary dwelling (ie a static, usually), and you have to be 150% committed, but it is doable.

Sorry, linky fail - the ELC