to ask what you think about Corbyn and Lammy's suggestion that houses of the rich should be requisitioned to give to homeless Grenfell victims?

[nutter19]

I am not sure what to think about it. On the one hand I agree that there are a lot of very big houses in the borough that are empty and could be used to house the homeless rather than left empty.

On the other hand, it seems a bit sinister to think they would just take private property off those they deem rich.

What do other people think?

You're not going to apologise? Just say that other things are unacceptable and so you can use whatever nasty, disablist language you like. That's your prerogative but I think it's a shame.

Righto, but next time there's an election can I advise against using 'We're all in this together' as your slogan.

X-posts, but my point still stands. Instead of apologising you've made a dig about how sensitive everyone on MN is.

computor who says that my friends flat wouldn't be requisitioned?

Who would be making the decision? Excuse me if I don't have full faith in the powers that be on local authority councils and their decision making processes.

Plus what happens in local authorities where there are not foreign owned empty properties? When people are made homeless in say Doncaster? Or Oldham? What properties would local authorities seek to requisition in those boroughs?

there should be a system so that in such an event a team swings into action

Well yes, but isn't that a bit like when everything grinds to a halt after two inches of snow and people cry "why don't they have a team of snowploughs in every city?" I imagine it's felt that resources are better spent on regular issues, rather than (fortunately) once in a blue moon events - though of course it looks bad when something like this does happen

As you say, let's just pray that the current arrangements really are having a decent effect ...

Been catching up with a cuppa. Boy this moved on since last night !!! Hubbie home and asleep for the first time in days. Exhaustion and a beer with lunch helped. He says it is lovely that the public are so kind - he has been attacked several times while at work and also seen paramedics attacked. V weird behaviour but some people just hate a uniform. So this has been welcome support, even if it's for horrible reason. I asked an old mate last night who still lives locally about empty housing and she said she hasn't ever seen much (especially not 'rows of empty houses' - it's London !!). Be nice if everyone could be housed locally today even if it means hotels for now. I just can't see there being lots of empty properties in an area where rent is so high but I hope I'm wrong. All my lot have come home today and we are going to eat, drink and laugh tonight - live life in memory of those lost. And be kind to each other. I wish the anger could stop and solutions be found calmly and with none of this hysteria. It doesn't help anyone. Protest yes, but be aware when you do that it takes Police away from other duties.

A lot of rich people have got rich because their house has gone up in value by huge amounts without them doing anything, let alone working for their wealth. Lots of people who bought houses 10-20 years ago for several hundred thousand in London now find themselves sitting on million pound properties. Perhaps it's time to tax unearned wealth much more than than salaried work?

How do you tax a house ? The person still has a low income so unless they sell they can't pay anymore tax. That's my family. Bought yonks ago and house now worth silly money. But I can't get any of it !!! It's only 3 bedrooms so can't get anymore people in as we have 5 kids. If you ask me for more tax then I'd have to sell and move miles away so my kids couldn't go to their school (no transport). And as they've already lost their parents and moved with me I think they've put up with enough disruption for a while.

I wish the anger could stop and solutions be found calmly and with none of this hysteria. It doesn't help anyone. Protest yes, but be aware when you do that it takes Police away from other duties

Brilliantly put, mumsneedwine

Ah the Prossecco is working. Kids are having a water fight (they are aged 15-24) and shrieking while soaking kids next door (who actually are children). Husband is awake and so I'm going to go chat and feed him beer. He needs to talk and laugh. As do we all. I'm off for the night before I start gushing and sounding like a bit of a hippy.

How do you tax a house ?

Remove relief from Capital gains tax on all property (allow rollover on principal private residence payable on downsizing or death). Increase inheritance tax?

I wish the anger could stop and solutions be found calmly and with none of this hysteria. It doesn't help anyone. Protest yes, but be aware when you do that it takes Police away from other duties

How do you suggest we switch off the anger?

I don't even live in the UK and I am angry. I can't believe that anyone thought it was a good idea to clad a building in highly flammable material. I can't believe that relatives have had to go from hospital to hospital looking for their loved ones. I mean even here in Mexico, where all kinds of things are wrong, we have a centralised service that you can phone to find out if your loved one is in a hospital. I can't believe that the people who have lost everything in this fire are not being properly looked after.

The snowplough analogy is fair enough - we would hope this will be a rare event even though it should be a never. But I still think there should be an emergency plan that provides some air of 'here is what we are going to do'.

The fire brigade, police and hospitals have it - thank goodness.

Someone earning £36k for example who bought their house in London 20 years ago for £180k might well now be sitting in a house worth half or three quarters of a million £. But how do you squeeze more money out of them? Stamp duty is high if they buy or sell but if they just continue living there with a good but not exceptional salary, how can they stump up wealth tax just because their family home, on paper, is worth some huge amount?

So instead someone on 50k is a higher rate tax payer despite never being able to afford that home and being financially worse off as a result. That isn't fair either. I don't know what the answer is though, whether there is any merit in exempting houses up to council tax band C and then making amounts gradual through D and E.

But what is true is that people who are genuinely rich don't actually need to work while we largely rely on PAYE for tax, it's an odd situation that actually taxes the middle to high earners (who are not rich) while the rich find loopholes and may not have that high an income anyway.

Nothing will be done anyway uts all hit air. Its not even law to have CO monitor in rented property unless its got solid fuel appliance. Gas appliances are exempt . Getting something like Corbyns plan through would take years of back and forward to finslly be ditched.

I wish the anger could stop and solutions be found calmly and with none of this hysteria. It doesn't help anyone. Protest yes, but be aware when you do that it takes Police away from other duties

The anger is not going to stop anytime soon and no wonder.
Asking people to stop feeling angry about this abhorrant situation is leaving your feet in a bucket of water for six hours and expecting them not to go wrinkly. Besides, it's not like the "angry" would be in a position to provide their solutions if only they could calm down a bit,
Anger here is justified and must be listened to.

It's so terrible. In a matter of hours more poor souls were killed because of inadequate housing in our wealthiest borough than the fucking ISIS terrorists managed to murder in the UK in a month.

As for Lammy: when IKEA opened up in his constituency and ran out of cheapo goods and a riot ensued - Lammy had the nerve to blame IKEA for not cutting the price of more of their stock instead of blaming the rioters.

I don't like IKEA but they were creating jobs in the area and after the riot they considered shutting down and cutting their losses; in the event they did not.

But what more do you need to know about Lammy?

Andrew-it wasn't a riot it was a crush. It happened because IKEA had a huge advertising campaign for a 24 hour sale and didn't have the infrastructure in place to deal with the sheer volume of customers that arrived. The store had to be closed within minutes of opening. It wasn't people rioting because Ikea ran out of stock. It's my closest Ikea store.

There needs to be something done to prevent homes being bought by the rich as investments, it is shocking how many empty house and flats there are in London. My DF has a flat in a big block in zone 1, 12 floors 2 of which are penthouses and 6-10 flats on the other floors all private with a matching council block beside it, I lived there for over a year and our floor of 10 flats was empty other than me, I very rarely saw people coming and going in the lobby and I was in all day everyday at the time. My DF bought his flat from a couple from Saudi who had never even seen it, all the show home furniture was still there. The flats people bought for £300k a only a few years ago are now approaching £750k in value in his block and most haven't ever been lived in since the block was built in 2008. That's a better return on an investment than almost anything else I can think of, and certainly is low risk, but it needs to be discouraged because we don't have enough homes as it is in this country and for so many to be going to waste is obscene.

Maybe if the owner of the empty property was charged the market value of rent for the property if it remains empty and that money is channelled into affordable housing it would discourage people from leaving empty houses. Then the property remains an investment for the owner but even if the owner doesn't want to go through the fuss of being a landlord and wants to leave it empty charging them the market rent would mean it is paying for other housing even if the property itself is being wasted. I don't know how workable that would be though.

There needs to be something done to prevent homes being bought by the rich as investments

Perhaps, but not confiscating or requisitioning those already so bought as is being proposed by a political leader who claims to be fit to be Prime Minister.

Mind you, there is already a 15% tax on second homes which has already cooled the luxury market considerably (those with vested interests might even say 'killed'). So change is underway, it will just take time to see its effect.

I haven't read the full thread, but this morning I read this and found it thought provoking - as a home owner who has benefitted from rising house prices, it is difficult reading. It is from Quaker Faith and Practise

Poverty and housing

We need to see the problem of homelessness as only one end of a spectrum of evil that has the massive subsidies to owners at the other. It is a problem that will be as difficult and painful to solve as slavery. Slavery as an evil shared many of the qualities of the present housing situation – it benefited the wealthy, created an underclass and denied them human rights. The solution was painful, for abolition often required that slave owners abandon their investment with no recompense. To change our attitudes to housing will be no less of a challenge to us than slavery was for the reformers, not only because institutional evil is hard to recognise but also because so many of us benefit personally from the present situation.

We must first understand the present system and become clear about the extent of right and wrong that it contains. If we could achieve this, we could first work towards a consensus on goals and then, I hope with other churches, start on the secular arguments.

This is a challenge that the Society, and indeed other churches, must face. If we fail to address the roots of an issue in which most of us are unwittingly part of the problem, we will need to look very carefully at the claims we make about our contribution in the world.

Richard Hilken, 1992; 1993

The Quakers always seem to be on the right side of history before everyone else catches on. Anti-slavery, pacifist, pro-gay marriage, prison reformers, employment rights, the list just goes on and on.