Stop silencing other women's voices !!

[HattiesBackpack]

I his isn't even an aibu, and its a thread about loads of other threads and I'm not bothered about mumsnet etiquette tonight because honestly this is really starting to hack me off!

The past few days have seen a real increase in posters trying to shout down other posters and belittle them and their lifestyle choices because they don't agree with them, and this really hacks me off.

(And I've been guilty of it too so this is to me as well)

Surely Feminism is about supporting other women's choices- even if you don't agree with those choices it doesn't make them any less valid.

So stop trying silence other women and listen to what they've got to say! It might be different to how you think but it will still be interesting and just as valid.

That's it really. I feel a bit better now I've written that!

Funnily enough I just followed a link to the Muslim women's thread on here; how differently they talk to one another.

Jesus Christ I can't believe I've read these words.

Anyone posting on a religious corner is free to do so but please don't hold religious people up as holier than thou as we all know that's crap.

The rudest woman I ever knew was a nun. Bloody vile woman. Stop with the 'all Muslim women' are respectful and speak in sweet low voices they really all don't.

Surely feminism isn't about just agreeing with someone/supporting them because you're the same sex?

What about the majority of us who would be paid for *not twerking naked' and find engineering, maths and science as fucking boring career choices.

No hope

Surely Feminism is about supporting other women's choices- even if you don't agree with those choices

I have a real issue with this TBH and I think there's a paradox at the very heart of it. I often find that I can't support individual women's choices because I feel that their choices have wider implications for women as a whole

For example, a friend of mine is having a baby girl. She's bought everything pink, she's planning on piercing the baby's ears, she put a scan photo on FB with a comment about how her baby already looked like supermodel.

Aside from how tacky this all is, it reinforces problematic stereotypes and reinforces the idea women (in this case a baby girl) get value from how they look. So, although it's just one woman making seemingly mundane choices, I think it contributes to the larger whole of patriarchy.

Sorry posted to early. Meant to say... so, I can't support some individual women's choices because I support women as a whole.

I don't personally agree with this (and it'd be silencing other women to insist your definition of feminism is better than theirs). I think feminism is about recognising women don't have equality, and believing this is wrong and should change. So no, I don't believe all choices are equally valid, just because they're made by women. If a woman chooses to go on a murder spree, it's still wrong. If she chooses to have her daughter mutilated through FGM, it's still wrong.

I'm not too fussed what other women choose to do in a reasonably permissive society, and I'm not about to get up in arms about (say) women who feel that they're ugly if they don't wear makeup. But I also don't think that belief is as valid as my own belief, which is that you should wear whatever the heck you please.

I think it is frankly ridiculous to expect everyone should smile and agree with everyone else's views, or pretend we all think each other's views are equally valid. We're adults. We're entitled to disagree and to be principled about it

This. I do honestly wonder about people who labour under the delusion that feminist involves plastering on a sisterly, non-confrontational smile and pretending that all female choices, no matter how damaging, are equally 'valid'.

Being obnoxious and bullying to someone on an internet forum or in person is an entirely separate matter to disagreeing with their choices, or pointing out that choices are not made in a vacuum.

How much do you get paid for not twerking naked, and where do I sign up?

Allthebestnamesareused

But some women are idiots and I like being able to point out that their choices are moronic.

The past few days have seen a real increase in posters trying to shout down other posters and belittle them and their lifestyle choices because they don't agree with them, and this really hacks me off

Well I definitely agree with you about people simply shouting others down when they don't agree with them.

For example calling all Tory voters evil (I'm exaggerating slightly). Or all labour voters fantasists for believing in a magic money tree.
I wish people would actually engage in a debate rather than simply claiming the moral high ground and dismissing other views.

*I don't have to support other women's choices, especially ones I don't agree with.

I absolutely believe that as long as it's legal, they can do what the fuck they want.

But it doesn't mean I have to support them.*

This.

It also doesn't mean I have to shut up and let them get on with it, especially when they are wrong- statements such as "My toddler wears pink, it's her own free choice and it's innate" I have every right to make the point that it is not innate, and she is more likely to make that choice because of social conditioning, not because of "pink brain".

The amount of women who have had guidance , support, things pointed out and suggested to them, even life saving advice , on MN to help them make better choices for themselves and their families is incredible, and far outweighs the nasty comments. However I do agree with you OP. I think people are feeling sad, stressed and nervous at the moment for obvious reasons, the world seems a mad place at the moment and sometimes it can bring out the worst in people, and thankfully, also the best.

Today 10:34 Morphene

feminism is about increasing the choices and options for women, but not all choices we make right here and now are going to help with that agenda.

I absolutely believe that twerking naked for cash is something women should be able to do if they want to, but right now, engaging in that is hindering the ability of other women to make choices like becoming an engineer.

So while I want the option of twerking for cash available to women, I would rather they didn't engage in it right now while female applicants to STEM subjects are so pitifully low.

Well this. And a similar post by a previous poster. If equality had been achieved, then women's choices would be being made on the back of that equality. They would be seen as nothing more or less than a preference.

Currently, whilst they might genuinely be a preference, it is a preference being made within an unequal system. So however objective you feel it is, it's probably not quite as objective as you think.

Having said that, there is absolutely no reason to be rude. You make your point as well as you can and you move on. If someone takes exception, you engage. Without rudeness. It's not necessary.

I have every right to make the point that it is not innate, and she is more likely to make that choice because of social conditioning

Absolutely - I disagree with you / you are wrong and this is why. No shouting down and no belittling.

The issue isn't about feminism, unless you are referring to a specific post. It's about the way to debate and disagree in a positive way. If someone is make choices you think are really poor, flat out contradicting them isn't going to change their mind.
Some of the rudest posters don't seek to engage with others at all, they just shout about how they are right and other people are wrong. Which doesn't actually change anyone else's opinion or behaviour, as far as I can see!

When every woman has a choice then I would agree, my mother was removed from school when her mother died to be her brothers carer. She was conditioned by circumstances that a woman's role was to find a good man - well any man who would marry her. She then tried to pass these values to her daughters and DILs not out of malice but out of belief. My father could drink the last of the food money but was a good man because at least he came home. My SIL is just the same and her daughters as well. Their choices conditions of their environment.

Debate, definitely. Accusations & belittling, definitely not. The election has brought out the worst in some people. Accept that everyone has the right to their opinion.

"If you have a vagina, enables me to know what is best for you and why you think the things you do, better than you do, and I can state which life choices are your duty to take."

Every ideological reason someone can use to fill the blank is crap, and that someone is just an arse who wants to tell the rest of us what to do.

this is a fair point, all of our definitions of what feminism is are valid.

Sorry, but that was not my point at all!

It's perfectly ok for adult women to disagree about what's valid.

I agree we should be being respectful of the way someone expresses themselves (eg. 'I don't agree with you, but here's why ...' rather than 'you're an idiot and you're wrong'). But that's not the same thing as suspending all mature judgment and pretending you believe everyone's view to be equally valid. That way madness lies - you'd end up trying to defend things that were factually incorrect or morally indefensible.

I am perfectly well aware, for example, that my opinion on women's health is unlikely to be as valid as that of someone who's more informed than I am, by virtue of their training or experience. It doesn't make me a bad woman or a bad feminist, that my view is less valid than that of a more informed person. And it wouldn't make that informed person a big meanie, 'shouting me down,' if she were to tell me my opinion wasn't valid.

ah ok I see what you are saying, what do you think makes a persons definition of feminism more valid?

I completely agree with the OP, I have seen so much nastiness on here recently. I don't have a problem with people disagreeing but it's not a debate unless both sides actually listen to each other.

I don't have a problem with people disagreeing but it's not a debate unless both sides actually listen to each other

Yes! This is what I was trying to say! Thanks Stateless and to the other pp's who have articulated it a lot better than I did.

Yes, debate is good, but telling other women they are being silly and hysterical, as I, and several other posters were told recently, is not debate, and hopefully not feminism either. And given that there was absolutely no sign of hysteria in any of our post, it was also incorrect.

It's a nasty way to try to shut people up and shows an inability to actually have an intelligent discussion; rather like children screaming 'you're stink' when they know they're not winning an argument.

*you stink, that should be. Only children with very bad grammar would yell 'you're stink.

Aggressive, now? No. Should have seen before.

I'd say the definition of anything (not just feminism) has to be advanced without the presumption that it's always already been accepted (so the definition in the OP doesn't fit), and it has to be reasonably precise and coherent, not vague. I'd say that 'feminism is the belief all women's choices are valid' leaves too many questions hanging, to be coherent definition. Why all women's choices, not all men's? Why all choices? Why choices, as opposed to opinions, views, activities, etc? Does this extend to choices that are illegal? Etc.

But I think I'd also expect anyone advancing any definition to make some reference to consensus/experience/knowledge. Not that everyone is going to be an expert in everything, but we're not Humpty Dumpty either.