Is it me or are social services being unreasonable?

[Rogersgal7]

Hi I have been lurking around and not posted until now, just wondered if anyone else has had a similar experience and what they have done.

My nan is in hospital as a result of a fall (this is the 2nd time she has been hospitalised for this in the last 18 months). First time she was discharged home with a package of care from S.S where a carer visited twice a day. She was able to live quite independently then.

This time however she has deteriorated and the GP has advised she has dementia. She has been acting quite strange when we visit her in hospital , hiding her food and saying that she will make us a cup of tea. She also gets confused about where she will sleep that night and worries that there are people trying to get in her bed at night.

I understand that a lot of how she presents is typical of dementia however social services now want her to be discharged home (she lives alone) with someone who will visit her twice a day. My problem with this is that she is not safe on her own she has full support in hospital and at times she even forgets to use her walking frame and is a high falls risk. It also concerns me that last time she was sent home there were times when her carers didn't turn up so she would be left alone.

I visit her 3 times a week and working full time (as does my mum) we cannot be there as often as we would like. It also doesn't help that she is telling all of the hospital staff and social services that she wants to go home , she doesn't understand the implications of what this means and without sounding mean she probably doesn't know what her home looks like.

I just want what is best for her and feel that S.S do not understand the full extent of how dangerous her living alone could be. I would love nothing more than her being in her own home with 24 hour care but this wouldn't happen.

If you have managed to stay with me through this post , thank you and does anyone have any advice as to how I can support my nan or where to go next as I feel I have hit a wall with S.S. I understand that S.S are doing their job in trying to support people at home as long as they can however I believe if she went home they would have a safeguarding issue on their hands as I am sure she would forget to lock her doors or forget to eat/drink . With some of her behaviours I am worried what she would do when alone at home. She is also in a large 3 bed council house and has little income so wouldn't be able to fund all of her care herself if she went into a care home. I feel so stuck and let down by the system.

without sounding mean she probably doesn't know what her home looks like.

Just so you know, it is probably the only place familiar to her anymore if she really has dementia kicking in.
Because in dementia short term memory becomes very confused, it is only long term memory that remains. My nana remained independent at home for a long time in part because it was the only place where she knew where everything was, because it had been in the same place for 30 years. She was essentially using her long term memory to get through the days.
When she eventually had to move next door to my mum to be cared for, this meant she had no idea in the new place where the kitchen was, the bathroom, how to make a simple cup of tea. The new place disorientated her enormously. It couldn't be helped, but certainly contributed to her shutting down then.
If your nan can be supported at home by your family and care workers, I would recommend that - the comfort of home is incredible. Of course, if it is too late for that, than so be it. But that familiarity will be one of the last things to go.

for you all

Even if someone lacks capacity a best interest decision for such a life changing can't be made that goes against someones wishes. for such a big decision an application to the court of protection is required.
Long gone are the days when people can be moved into a home against their will. This is not a bad thing imo however much we worry

It might be worth asking about rehab potential, what is this? Could residential respite be a short term option? Sometimes having a proper choice, i.e. Knowing what a home is like also allows people to come to their own conclusions.
Another option would be to think about supported living in your area, some times called extra care. ( where you have your own flat but onsite 24 hr support)

Some family members, who are often kind and with good intent, forget that even vulnerable adults are adults and have the right to make unwise decisions. Being confused and in fact, even a dementia diagnosis, does not automatically means someone lacks capacity. Equally, hospital wards often exacerbate confusion and memory impairments.

Things to do;
1.) Ask social services about assistive technology/Telecare.
2.) Ask ward for an OT assessment and physiotherapy, if appropriate.
3.) Ask for a referral for a formal assessment of mental health and cognition.

It is not entirely unexpected at her age to have some memory impairment and 2 falls in 18 months is fairly low to average. You can get various falls detectors, so that even if she couldn't press a lifeline/call alarm, it would be triggered automically.

I hope this helps. :)

Quoting LuckyAid:

Even if someone lacks capacity a best interest decision for such a life changing can't be made that goes against someones wishes. for such a big decision an application to the court of protection is required.
Long gone are the days when people can be moved into a home against their will. This is not a bad thing imo however much we worry

End quote

Not sure where you got this. If someone lacks mental capacity then actually, yeah, the Council's Social Services assumes legal control of that person, end of. They are the decision makers.

I had Jean Hills, Safeguarding head for Surrey's Epsom and Ewell, crowing about this behind our backs to our solicitors when we tried to move her from a failing care home.

If you, as a relative, think otherwise, then that's all very well but you have no legal clout at all over your relative I'm afraid. You need to have got Power of Attorney in Health and Welfare to change that but - whoops! - if you weren't forewarned about that in advance, too late! You can't get it after your rellie has lost mental capacity - the horse has already bolted. From thereon, Social Services own your relative, so if it costs them to put them in a home, too bad, you'll struggle to get them to agree. If you are self-funding and therefore in effect able to subsidise the care home, then they will build a case for putting your relative in one, whether you want it or not.

In theory, under the Care Act, social services have to consult close relatives regarding care, but in practice they don't have to - because, wait for it, the Council is actually unaccountable. I mean, what are you going to do? Take expensive legal action against them? Complain to the Council - about the Council? You're stuffed.

just want what is best for her and feel that S.S do not understand the full extent of how dangerous her living alone could be

oh my bet is they know this full well. but there is no money is there. Sorry for you OP, and its time to maybe start to take stock, get power of attorney and consider options, sorry

If she has dementia and there are concerns about her coping she needs to have a capacity assessment and ideally a ot assessment to determine what tasks she can manage. If it is deemed that she had capacity then she cannot be forced into a care home if this is not what your nan wants - unfortunately this means she has to get worse before the decision is taken put of her hands. Also two care calls a day is not very much - is your nan able to remember to make a drink / eat if something is left out for her?

IME SS are always unreasonable! They tried to send my DF home from hospital when he'd been diagnosed with a brain tumour and needed a hoist to be lifted. He didn't have a clue what was going on and could barely move, let alone live independently. Then we had the whole 'whose responsibility is his care?' dance. Health and social care battled it out between themselves for a bit, fucked up his fast track discharge to a home (he had fewer than six months to live and so should have been given a fully funded place in a home within 48 hours) and eventually I threatened to sue the NHS one Friday evening. Guess what? First thing Monday morning, everything was resolved.

What struck me most about the whole sorry debacle was that not once did anyone from SS help to explain what my DF's rights and entitlements were. They were more than happy to push back care onto the family and would have willingly let us pay for care, had I not known that this should have been paid for for DF on medical grounds. There is no way SS could not have known this. I had to be ridiculously assertive in order to get the family's point of view across and argue for what I knew he was legally entitled to. At one point, my brother stopped a MDT meeting and told everyone around the table to stop and listen to him. He lived 200 miles away and could not provide family support. They carried on regardless... We were treated with such disdain and as though we were trouble makers when in reality, we were asking for nothing more than what the NHS guidelines say about continuing care. God help anyone who doesn't have an advocate because it was hard enough with we siblings fighting tooth and nail and whilst having had nothing to do with social services preciously, we are literate, know where to look for information and can hold our own in an argument.

The whole situation cast SS in a shamefully sorry light and the NHS was little better. We had LPA, both health and financial, and hence had a say in DF's care. If we hadn't, and hadn't been so aggressive in our pursuit of what was right, I honestly believe my DF would have been discharged home and died through either starvation or a fatal fall.

Quite right, and that's why you need POA in both Health and Welfare AND Financial.

But Sprinklestar, you neglect to mention what county you are in! I can understand your not naming and shaming Safeguarding individuals, but to name and shame the local authority should be alright?

As for being assertive... watch it, everyone! You'll get the 'verbal aggression' and 'intimidation' smear on your relative's medical notes. Subsequent care providers can pick up on that and make the same accusations against you, believable on the basis that you have (fabricated) 'form'.

Absolutely right... you get treated as the 'trouble makers' when you are the ones doing the right thing. Surrey County Council in particular have been brilliant at concocting a 'fictional narrative' with regards us and our family.

You will only understand councils like this when it dawns on you that dead bodies save them a fortune. Until then, you won't grasp why you are strangely at cross purposes, esp if earlier on you fell for all their cock-and-bull safeguarding 'concerns' previously aired - these are done only to assert control over families and never used against care homes.

One of the things that did help us was a very thorough and detailed paper trail. We had records of every conversation with every agency and could refer back to them when we needed to. We checked and cross checked guidelines, relevant legislation, called people out when standards weren't met and guidelines weren't adhered to. It's a shame that that's what care has come to, but it seemed to be the only way to get anywhere. I would constantly ask for the names of people who were accountable for each decision and hold them to what they had said. We were undoubtedly the squeaky wheel and I am as tenacious as they come. I didn't feel victorious when our points were proven. I just felt incredibly sad that this was what things had come to, all the moreso because DF was a decent human being, had worked and paid his taxes for forty years, never needed anything from the state and this is how he was repaid.

Has she had a capacity assessment.

Legally we have to assume capacity unless an assessment tells us otherwise.

If your nan has capacity and says she wants to go home, that's the only place she is going. As can do nothing else but risk assess and put risk reduction measures in place. If you feel the risks have not adequately been considered you can raise this. Have they suggested a discharge planning meeting? What do the nurses on the ward think - talk to them. Ask what tasks she is being supported with and think about how that will translate to home.

Assistive technology can be very helpful, the usual is a lifeline pendant around her neck but if you think she'd forget to press it you can also get fall detectors work in the wrist that alert automatically if she falls and doesn't get up. Risk of falls us not in itself a reason to consider a residential placement, because she could fall there too - you can't stop someone falling.

OTs should be assessing her as a matter of course before discharge - ask the ward what's happening. They can also attend the discharge planning meeting to address concerns.

Couple of things. Firstly, you can challenge a decision made about a relative's care if they lack capacity. Secondly, there is a local government ombudsman to whom you can complain. They are independent.

However, I can't see where the complaint is in the OP's case. Well meaning relatives often don't realise that legally, you cannot treat any adult (even one who lacks capacity to make certain decision) like a child. You cannot whip people away from their homes. It's not about funding, it's about human rights. You don't stop having the right to a private and family life just because you have dementia or a stroke. Yes, your safety should always, always be paramount but this does not override your article 8 rights.

^^The last sentence should say "does not always override your article 8 rights". They have to be balanced.

In theory, TC. In fact, Social Services can do as they please.

For instance, you say you can challenge a decision... Well, twice Surrey County Council held meetings about my mother under Section 42 of the Care Act, where abuse is alleged.

Thing is, neither the charming Martin Gaunt & David Kibble, nor Jean Hills who pulled the same stunt a year later, saw fit to notify us about the so-called 'abuse'. Gaunt and Kibble never officially did, and I only found out about that via a Subject Access Request to the Surrey County Council, one that took them roughly 5 months to reply to. Hills did, but only referred to 'Section 42 of the Care Act' and only after my sister and I googled it did we find out about 'abuse' and then it was a case of, okay, what abuse then?

This was after Kibble and Hills had acted very charming to my sister in meetings, appeared to exonerate us on all counts re the nursing homes and suggested we'd like to get our mother back to the family home! Well, that's nice, a vote of confidence.

They had no intention of doing such a thing. Later I asked Eileen Chubb of the Compassion in Care whistleblowing charity about this, and she didn't miss a beat. 'It's so they can claim you are likely to abscond with your mother, so they can then obtain a court order STOPPING you from moving your mother from the care home.'

It also allowed them to go on a fishing expedition against us, or me in particular.

Why did they do this? Because a few months earlier I'd went to the local press about a care home that nearly killed my mother, even though the previous month it had failed its CQC rating on all counts but the CQC hadn't notified anyone. The Council was out for blood - mine - and were prepared to use my 82-year-old mother with advanced Parkinson's as bait. That is what they are like.

When 'abuse' is cited - and the pretext can be v flimsy and they don't seem to even have to tell you that it has been, then the Safeguarding team can sit on the case as long as they want, mess you about, ignore your Safeguarding concerns about the care home(s) (as Kibble and Hills did) and kick it into the long grass. Try to complain to the Council, they will say you can't until the issue has been closed. That happens when the team decide, and even then can delay for another tasty two months - sort of 'wait and see' for a final meeting. You are powerless, and they know it.

So you can't complain to the Ombudsman until a) You have complained to the Council i.e. the very Safeguarding team who is trying to stitch you up and they have deliberated and decided whether to exonerate themselves or not! Only then, after they have responded, and this can take as long as they like, can you take it to the Ombudsman.

It's like being mugged and calling the police only to be told 'Sorry Sir/Madam, we cannot act until you make a complaint to the mugger himself, and he decides whether he is guilty or not. If you are unsatisfied with the complaint, they you can contact us!'

Wait, it's worse than that.

Because the Safeguarding team have to finish with you first. So it's like calling the police, only to be told, 'Sorry Madam/Sir, we can't deal with it until you make a complaint to the mugger, and you can't do that until said mugger has finished with mugging you, attacking you then draining your bank account on a daily basis, going back each day to attack you, then six months down the line, only reluctantly and with a heavy heart, deciding they are done with you.
'Then, and only then, can you start the complaints process...'

And I'm not sure the Ombudsman is so great, we shall see, but they have a lousy reputation and are they really impartial? No one else appears to be.

Very sorry to say that our local MP Chris Grayling is aware of disgraceful conduct of Surrey County Council's adult social care team - we have exchanged emails with him and had three surgeries on the matter - and has decided to turn a blind eye. Still, as he enjoys one of the safest seats in the country, I don't suppose he's any more accountable than Social Services.

In fact, SS have worked out how to abuse the rules to their own advantage thank you very much, and that includes DOLS (Deprivation of Liberty) too.

That's terrible Newspaper! I often wonder where these people find the time to do this sort of thing? Aren't they meant to be busier than ever?

Well, no, you see - they turn a blind eye to care home wrongdoing, at least in Surrey anyway. Once you realise that, it's a game changer. They literally have nothing else to do than mess blameless families about. Mind you, it's sort of best you don't find out quite what they are up to.

What their endgame was, I'm not sure. Just to thwart what ever we wanted to do but not make it obvious would have been enough. Maybe they were helping to build a case on the sly and assume the Deputyship of our mother over us. That does away with even having to consult or allow us to appeal over our mother's care.

Vindictive doesn't begin to cover it. Now, I'm not saying this will happen to you, I'm saying it could, so the idea you can appeal to them over any decision or play nice and good will prevail, forget it. It will take months to effect, and I don't need to point out that with the elderly, the clock is ticking.

Newspaper have you had legal advice? Sorry, I'm only skim reading as I'm shattered tonight. When anyone makes an application to the Court of Protection, parties will be named, so families and friends etc. You can challenge this in court.

IME, it's cheaper for the LA for families to have deputyship and it's also better practice as families (assuming no abuse) would know how how the indivual would want to spend their money and can buy their own clothes, toiletries and whatever.

While your experience is terrible and sadly, not surprising. That is not true of all areas as most LAs investigate and close down care homes and care agencies that have such serious concerns.

Tell SS and the nursing staff that you have your nan's house keys (And get hold of them!) and will not be returning them until such time as OT have done a full assessment. Ask for a mini-mental to be done. Do not let them send her home and if OT thinks she is going to be safe at home, do not let her go until the care package is in place and never let them throw her out on a Friday.

I am so sorry that you are going through this. I have lived through it, and right now am supporting a friend who is going through the same thing. It is heart breaking that our elderly have to fight for something that ought to be given by right.

Newspaper your experience sounds horrific. I am so sorry your family went through that.

Please don't tar us all with the same brush though. I couldn't even comment on what happened to you as I'm in a Welsh local authority, but none of my service users would have been through that rigmarole on my watch. My LA has suspended contracts with care homes and Homecare providers very quickly if there are concerns over quality of care - which actually makes our lives as social workers and care managers harder, but we're quick to report concerns because - certainly in my team - we care very much about the experiences of our service users.

I know there are poor examples in every profession but there are also those of us who care deeply about the people we work with, who want to help them feel independent and be free to make choices and take risks whilst at the same time trying to keep them safe. I have sobbed through commutes and lain awake nights worrying about complex cases, I have gone to battle with commissioning panels and district nurses and ward managers, I have taken phone calls from families on my days off to try to allay their concerns or help with urgent queries. And I never, ever start home care packages on a Friday.

I just want to say we aren't all horrible, some of us care, we really do.

Ideally it sounds as though someone in the family needs to move in with Gran, at least for a while and help her to readjust at home. Is this not an option?
Cynically, in a lot of families someone would be doing this in part to secure succession on the council tenancy as and when.

Thanks TC, we got legal advice over one instance, where Epsom & Ewell locality leader Jean Hills and social worker Sherene West said we needed to verify the 'legal framework' for moving our relative from the care home, even though we are self-funding etc, and that's when alarm bells started to ring. The solicitor we contacted said it was okay for us to move her as we had 'agreement' with the Safeguarding team to do so, but actually the team continued to mess us about, giving us radio silence and not confirming anything in writing.

Officially, they were in control because we'd never been told about the importance of getting POA in Health and Welfare, and I can assure you that in Surrey at least, nobody in adult social care will flag this up with you - why should they? It's not in their interests to do so.

We asked Chris Grayling MP for help, and the Council sold him a cock and bull story, which he was only quite happy to accept. 'Oh, they say you're moving her back to the family home, so they have to look into it.' 'Er, no we're not, we told you we were looking to move her to another care home.'

The result? See pic attached. Incidentally, where the Council says, Ooh, we investigated it and it wasn't upheld, nah, forget it. Neither Jean Hills nor anyone else in Surrey Council's adult social care team ever contacted us about the incident captured on our hidden spy camera. Their investigation most likely consisted of asking the care home 'So is there a problem?' and the care home saying, 'No, you're alright actually...'

So when any paper prints some kind of 'all's well that ends well' disclaimer from the Council in a story like this, it's probably rubbish.

For that we were paying over a grand a week, and while the Council messed us about, and Chris Grayling fiddled, our mother nearly died at twice. And we were made out to be the bad guys.

Charmers, aren't they.

Anyway, sorry to take this away from the OP's post, but yes, social services can be awful , so you need to be prepared. Welshmaenad, you sound okay but I don't think your face would fit in Surrey, however!