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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Cultural appropriation/blackface

46 replies

Mrbluethecatt · 30/05/2017 13:50

My niece has a dress up evening this weekend at her dance club. She is 8. She has learned the Beyonce single ladies dance and has a black leotard, black dance shoes (with little heels) and a metal type glove. Her hair will be styled like the video. She will have some makeup mainly a smokey eye.

She is white and will not be wearing fake tan or anything that would change her skin colour.

She was at my house yesterday practicing and my friend asked her what she was doing. After my friend left she texted me to say she thought it was awful the I was teaching DN cultural appropriation and allowing her to do blackface. I responded she wasn't. My friend is white if that is relevant. Since then I have had another friend say something similar.

Could DN's act be seen as cultural appropriation and blackface? Are we being unreasonable to allow her to do it?

OP posts:

LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle · 30/05/2017 15:20

Thanks @Moanyoldcow (felt weird writing that! )

I 100% agree, and it really fucks me off when people get all "oh its just some handwringing" without any understanding of the much, much wider issues involved.
Like people being offended at the total obliteration of their culture, followed by the parody of some of their most sacred/important things, is just, well, "lefty handwringing" rather than justified rage.

Boulshired · 30/05/2017 15:23

I was at a Rhianna tribute act and the artist was white (and about 5ft) and there were complaints about cultural appropriation. The lady changed her act and song line up to just covers. It was quite thought provoking.

Beyonce has been accused of cultural appropriation herself and miley Cyrus for twerking. Which could be claimed in the dance of single ladies.

Seniorcitizen1 · 30/05/2017 15:23

It could be argued that Beyonce appropriates white culture - straighting and colouring her hair. This is a nonsense concept - see lots of Asian men and women wearing western clothes or does it only work one way. However think it in appropriate for a child to dress and dance like an overly sexualised pop singer.

CheesyCrust · 30/05/2017 15:26

MoanyOldCow

I didn't say they didn't exist. I said they'd been invented QED do exist.

I did say that they'd been invented by those who spend their lives looking to be offended. The fact that they've needed append 'micro' to their latest fad shows just how carefully they're searching to find things protest against when not in gender studies class.

HighwayDragon1 · 30/05/2017 15:28

Your friends are idiots.

Beyone dances arts not suitable for 8 year olds though

LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle · 30/05/2017 15:30

@CheesyCrust

Care to answer my first post, where I point out cultural appropiation is avery real thing, that offends very real communities like First Nations.

It ain't white students getting offended- it's real First Nation peoples- care to comment on that??

VestalVirgin · 30/05/2017 15:32

Isn't it a bit sexual for an 8yr old to dance?

Yeah, the mention of heels made me worry a bit.

Which is really the only thing to worry about here.

Cultural appropriation can be a problem, but anyone with any common sense can see that OP's niece admires Beyonce and wants to imitate her for that reason. That's not racist, is it just something children do, and considering she doesn't even try with fake tan, I see no problem at all with it.

What comes next? Am I not allowed to grow maize, beans and pumpkin together in a garden because Native Americans invented that combination?

Actually remember my brother doing blackface for our family Christmas play, very old Finnish tradition (playing the part of the King of the Moors), I'm sure my mum now is horrified that she blacked his face up!

I don't consider that blackface as most people understand it. The US American blackface play was invented as a a means of parodying and humiliating black people.

The tradition of having three wise men / kings visit baby Jesus and having one of those be black because that's what the story says he was is just acting. It is about as racist as Shakespeare having female roles be played by men in dresses was sexist.
I.e. a bit problematic, but not even close to intentionally insulting parodies.

SayNoToCarrots · 30/05/2017 15:42

seniorcitizen, It's a bit hard to avoid appropriating the dominant culture, particularly when doing otherwise can work against you (many black women are expected to straighten their hair / wear Western dress in order to appear professional or attractive). In addition, there is not really a history of mocking use of the things you mentioned as a part of white culture.

Blackface is not OK because of the history of black and white minstrels doing ugly parodies of black people, wearing religious / culturally significant or sacred items for shits and gigs is not OK because it trivialises their original use.

Frankly, spouting the 'or does it only work one way' nonsense shows your ignorance. Incidentally OP your friend's suggestion that Beyoncé's dances are a significant part of black culture, held in such esteem that white people are not allowed to to copy them, shows her ignorance.

LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle · 30/05/2017 15:54

@SayNoToCarrots

Couldn't have put it better myself.

@seniorcitizen - take note of this and don't ever compare the enforced adoption of white/western culture by black people, with the deliberate parody of the apprently "lesser" black culture by white people.

They are so not the same thing.

We forced black women to look "white".

Learn some fucking history.

scottishdiem · 30/05/2017 16:04

I think if it had been anything from the Lemonade album I would have given a different answer. That album clearly had a message.

CheesyCrust · 30/05/2017 16:13

LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle

I can't actually see you made a point to address. If you did, I'd be happy to address it.

If you're asking me to care about a white person with dreadlocks or cornrows or a 'non-First Nation People' (as I assume we now need to be referred to) having a dream catcher in their bedroom, I really, really can't. It's as ridiculous as the complaining when David Beckham wore a crucifix as a fashion accessory. It is of such little significance I wonder how anyone can really care. I suspect that no one does, but some people would wonder what to do with their time if there was nothing for them to be offended by.

TheMysteriousJackelope · 30/05/2017 16:13

SeniorCitizen I live in the Southern US and black women here have to straighten their hair and wear business suits and heels to be employed. If they wear their hair in braids, cornrows, or dreads they are being 'ghetto' or 'ethnic' and don't get hired. Meanwhile if a white woman puts her hair in cornrows its 'cute' and 'fashion forward', and 'edgy'.

It's a complete double standard and a clear example of cultural appropriation and 'white privilege' where one culture adopts another with no acknowledgement of their contribution and in circumstances that the original culture would suffer for if they did it.

Many black women are left with virtually no hair after decades of damaging hair treatments.

OP I don't think your niece is practicing cultural appropriation. If a little black girl performed the same song it would have been fine, she is clearly crediting Beyoncé with it, she isn't wearing something that a black girl could not, she isn't putting on blackface.

usernamealreadytaken · 30/05/2017 16:26

Does that mean we can't go and see Chinese Elvis anymore as he's trying to white face?

KickAssAngel · 30/05/2017 16:31

I think that you need to look at both the motive behind Beyonce's work originally, and also the power balance between the represented group.

Beyonce clearly markets her music to a very broad audience, including white 8 year olds from Britain. Therefore it isn't being taken, so much as offered.

Also, I would argue that Beyonce has the balance of power, and isn't in any way having her beliefs/culture eroded by this.

It's similar to Motown music which was deliberately marketed so that white people would buy it and make money for artists & record company. Appropriation would be when a bunch of white college kids go to a jazz club previously only open to African Americans (as happens in Animal House) as they are invading/taking that club atmosphere.

hoddtastic · 30/05/2017 16:38

lots of unchecked privilege on here isn't there?

not entirely sure that it's appropriate for any 8 year old to do the whole dropping ass shaking thing either.

PeanutButterJellyTimeforTea · 30/05/2017 16:50

I think that you need to look at both the motive behind Beyonce's work originally, and also the power balance between the represented group

Or you could just realise that its an 8 year old singing a song. and cop yourself on a bit?

LotusBomb · 30/05/2017 17:40

The whole "but black women straighten their hair" thing as a rebuttal for pointing out cultural appropriation is lazy at best if not just flat out ignorance. I quick flick through history books on the subject of colonisation will tell you that the two don't even compare. Having your own cultural norms stripped from you as you're forcibly removed from everything that you've even known and being forced to assimilate with Eurocentric expectations is not the same as choosing a hairstyle because you think it's cute. Beyoncé straightening her hair is the tip of a massive historical iceberg where that is concerned. Do you honestly thing she would have had the same mainstream success if her and the rest of Destinys Child wore their natural hair in Afros or Braids with no extensions involved? Absolutely no way.

Original poster

Mrbluethecatt · 30/05/2017 18:02

I'm not keen on her doing the dance as it's a bit much for an 8 year however her mum approved it. Unfortunately she is away this week so it's me who is taking her.

Only good thing about my friends comment was I have had a wee chat about cultural appropriation and blackface with DN using some of the comments here.

OP posts:

Natsku · 01/06/2017 12:08

I don't consider that blackface as most people understand it. The US American blackface play was invented as a a means of parodying and humiliating black people.

The tradition of having three wise men / kings visit baby Jesus and having one of those be black because that's what the story says he was is just acting. It is about as racist as Shakespeare having female roles be played by men in dresses was sexist. I.e. a bit problematic, but not even close to intentionally insulting parodies

Suppose you're right, although some of the words in the play were a bit 'off' like "although I am a black man, I am loved by more than you"

C3H8O · 01/06/2017 12:23

The whole cultural appropriation thing is being taken too far these days IMO. I'm Japanese and not too long ago had an English mate of mine tell my English DP to not use chopsticks when eating sashimi because "that's part of Asian culture"??

There are few things more irritating than having someone be indignant on your behalf for no rhyme or reason. There's no point to it and it more often than naught only descends into said person (blatantly or otherwise) criticising everyone for being "ignorant" and me being "brainwashed into thinking this is normal". Just awful.

gotthemoononastick · 01/06/2017 12:27

Sigh...the cultural appropriation thing is small onions compared to very little girls being allowed to even know about these horrible , suggestive music videos.
I am ancient,so sue me for thinking 'wrong'.

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