Is this possible. Re Tm and "dementia tax"

[monkeysox]

Have been thinking about this.

If many people no longer inherit big ish sums due to care costs (home not taken into account at the moment for care in own home) how will this affect the housing market?

Government may end up "owning" shares of lots of houses but who will have a deposit to buy one of them?

It would take loads of potential homeowners out of the market.

Aibu does that make sense?

Also if someone has dementia, any medical treatment they require is" paid for ' by the NHS it's just that usually there isn't any so again it's referred back to adult social care Do you think dementia gives you some protection from other types of illness? The lady I know in her 80s has various conditions which are ignored as everything is put down to dementia and lets face it at 80 odd she's going to die of something so who cares?

My mother had severe dementia and was in a care home. We had to sell her house to pay the astronomical fees and were only allowed to keep £23,500, so as I see it, being able to keep £100,000 is an improvement.

granny well that's wrong (morally) clearly. Cancer or kudney failure or a heart condition or diabetes in someone with dementia should be treated.

I think mental health services across the board in the UK are a shambles, but most dementia patients need to be in a specialist dementia unit if they get to the stage you describe - of course not all ever have the type of paranoid delusions you describe. Does the lady you know have Parkinsons?

And nothing I said suggested I think dementia gives people protection, there is no need to be an arse.

Suzy but that's it isn't it - who keeps the 23k? Not the patient. If you have late stage dementia it's your heirs fighting to keep the money for themselves, it's of no relevance to the patient.

I am also puzzled by why people are saying 100k protected is worse than 23k protected - is it because the pay if you have more than 23k was specifically for residential care and the pay if you have more than 100k is also including care in your own home?

DrinkigTea, Well why would you think elderly people rarely get other conditions? The 80 year olds I know who don't have dementia have a variety of conditions from arthritis, to high blood pressure, diabetes, breathing problems (COPD), varicose veins the list is endless. I don't know anyone in their 80s who isn't taking medication for some condition so I don't understand why you are saying that people with dementia usually don't have any other medical condition.

No she doesn't have Parkinsons, her actual diagnosis is Alzheimers.

As far as I'm concerned it isn't about the inheritance, the old lady I know will probably leave anything she has to the local dogs home and I dare say they will survive without it. My issue is that people like her aren't being cared for properly.

Where on earth did I say elderly people rarely get other conditions? You are fabricating.

I said medical conditions should be being treated on the NHS, but the current system separates (to an extent artificially) medical treatment from social care. So someone with cancer and dementia would theoretically be getting chemotherapy and drug treatment on the NHS but not help with getting up, washing, dressing, shopping, cooking etc if they are wealthy enough to contribute.

You said, Also if someone has dementia, any medical treatment they require is" paid for ' by the NHS it's just that usually there isn't any so OK you didn't say rarely you said there usually isn't any, nitpicking I think.

What time did I post that Granny ? I've looked back and can't see anywhere that I've written "usually there aren't any" medical conditions needing treatment.

Drinkingtea, I may be wrong as I haven't worked in adult services for a while now but someone with cancer and dementia would almost certainly be CHC fully funded.

Someone with Alzheimer's or dementia can receive CHC funding if they meet the assessment criteria. Historically it was mostly physically medically unwell people who received the funding (stroke, cancer, bed bound requiring nursing care etc) but in the last 5-10 years I had seen an increase in my LA of service users in care homes due to mental illness receiving it.

The new proposal seems better than the current situation where if you go into a care home the LA will only fund once your assets reach approx £23500, given that care home fees can be £1000 per week any assets someone had can be used up in a short time. Elderly people and their families often try to put off a move to res care due to this.

In my LA the standards of many of the care homes are appalling. I have seen numerous safeguarding referrals for most of the homes in my area and would be loath to have to place any of my relatives in one.

Service users are also assessed for care at home fees and to my knowledge have always had to pay towards these if they can afford it.

What I find wrong is that people who have worked hard to afford their own home or save a large amount of money, which they wish to leave to their family lose most of it if they end up needing care which isn't deemed to meet the CHC criteria. Others who either have been on benefits or who have had the foresight to "gift" any of their assets will be fully funded by the LA. The whole system needs looking at and their needs to be vast improvements in the standards of many care homes.

I actually quite liked this policy. It would encourage retirees to consider downsizing into a property that will meet their long term needs. At that point, should they choose to, they could help their kids pay off a chunk of mortgage and would still have their smaller property/and any savings should they need to fund care. This reduces inheritance tax, frees up bigger properties for families without constantly having to build more, and also allows £100,000 to be left eventually not £23,500.

I absolutely agree everyone should receive the best possible care regardless of age, type of illness or wealth or lack of wealth.

What I struggle with is this concept that if you need a service and do have the means to pay for it you shouldn't have to. Everyone would like to leave their children or grandchildren hundreds of thousands of pounds, but for most people it's apipe dream, including most people who have worked hard all their lives. Having wealth doesn't entitle you to keep it, especially to pass on to heirs who have not worked for it. The NHS is a great thing, but it isn't there to protect inheritances.

Drinkingtea nobody gets NHS help with gettng up, washing and dressing,. This is provided by adult social care.

mill that's what I'm trying to say - that dementia patients are not unfairly treated in this regard, because like everyone else the medical and social care are compartmentalized. I'm not sure it's the best approach either for the patient or financially, but in theory at least granny's argument that dementia is not covered by the NHS the way other conditions are sounds incorrect. It might happen in practice of course, where the dementia patients have nobody to advocate for them. That is a flaw of course.

There are massively differing levels of care needed for people with dementia care. My gran had to be moved out of her (lovely) res care home into nursing care as the res care staff could not meet her care needs. She was assessed for CHC and did not meet the criteria, I think if my aunt appealed the decision now she would be reimbursed the nursing home costs as my gran most definitely required nursing care for the last year of her life.

Having seen the CHC checklist it is not clear cut and imo many social workers skew the answers so that service users able to self fund do and are deemed not eligible for CHC which is obviously unfair.

Drinkingtea I think we are agreeing then? Whatever your medical condition is you have to pay for social care be it dementia or cancer. So calls of 'dementia tax " are not accurate. I have aranged numerous packages of care for people living with cancer and it's not paid for by the NHS as some believe

I agree that if someone is only requiring basic home support and has a large amount of savings or could downsize and free up equity then they should fund their own care. £100000 left as inheritance is still a large amount.

I am not really sure what all the fuss is about, unless I'm missing something the new proposal seems better.

Personally I'd rather be euthanised if I ever reach the point I need to be in a home or having a carer change my nappy. I hope I never have to make a decision about any of my relatives going into care homes.

Yep I think so mill !

I don't think it will have that much effect on the cost of housing. An increase to inheritance tax would be fairer all round. Though nobody wants to pay it including me. But it's fairer than a dementia tax.

Just to add black grouse. Nurses do the CHC checklist in my LA not Adult Social Care. SW are there for the full assessment where Social workers advocate for the fairest outcome for their clients. We are working in the Best intereats of the clients and are not motivated by money. That we would want people to pay if they had a property is laughable. It's a legal process and is not based on the thoughts and whims of one individual

Well said blackgrouse

Well in my LA trained Social Workers can and do carry out the assessment and my grans was completed by her allocated social worker in the nursing home.

Given the amount of appeals that have come in for retrospective CHC funding (and getting it) either the assessments are being done wrong due to lack of understanding/training, or due to financial implications.

Black grouse. Are you talking about the checklist or the assessment as they are entirety different?

Mill1969, having spent over 18 years working alongside adult social work staff I can say with certainty that finances have an impact on the assessment outcome.

I have seen social workers and care managers leave as they felt they could no longer do their jobs the way higher management were demanding, due to cuts.

Elderly, vulnerable people have had their home visits cut massively due to funding. Someone assessed 15 years ago as needing 3 x 1 hour home visits per day would now maybe get 1 1/2 hour visit, it's disgusting.