Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder if there are supporters of grammar schools who didn't go to grammar schools themselves

849 replies

WildebeestH · 24/05/2017 14:57

Just that really. The only friends I have who support grammar schools went to grammar schools themselves. I'm intrigued to know if there are many people who support them having not been to a grammar (or other selective) school and if so why?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Eolian · 26/05/2017 14:42

Eolian you said something earlier about ways to improve comprehensives, which is something I am really interested in. What do you think needs to be done?

Sorry for not replying sooner - was at work!

Ok well you'd get different answers from different teachers on this, but I imagine there would be a fair amount of common ground.

As I see it, the problems are as follows:

What schools do is largely driven by league tables. This is presumably supposed to drive up attainment by creating competition between schools to force them to up their game. Everything - performance management; which subjects the kids are allowed to take; which groups of students are 'targeted' and given extra help (and which ones aren't) etc etc - comes down to the school's need for its data to compete. But what that actually does is encourage schools to focus entirely on, and in many cases be very 'creative' with, the data instead of concerning themselves with what's actually best for the students.

Because the government can't actually control how pupils behave or whether they bother to do any work, it is only logical Hmm to hold teachers entirely responsible for all attainment and results (even though in the end teachers can't actually force kids to work hard either).

So we have a system where a) kids know the teachers will do all the running because it's their job on the line, but b) teachers spend so much time providing data and creating proof that they are actually doing their job, that they either burn out, quit or do a crap teaching job because they don't have time.

In addition to this, bad behaviour continues to be tolerated because it's so widespread that it's very hard to manage it as a classroom teacher. You end up spending a disproportionate amount of time managing the naughty kids and get through far less work as a result.

So....

We need to ban league tables, make performance management less aggressive, have a pretty much zero tolerance policy towards bad behaviour (several internal exclusion rooms if necessary, parents required to come immediately and remove their child in extreme cases).

Kids who refuse to work in spite of teachers' help should be allowed to FAIL (except in seriously extenuating circumstances). Rigorous setting, as far as the size of the school allows. A safe in each form room - all kids' mobile phones go in there at morning registration and can be picked up at the end of the day.

More flexibility in terms of being able to do fewer or different GCSEs if a pupil is very weak academically or has SEN which make some subjects well nigh impossible (again, this flexibility wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for schools being justifiably paranoid about league tables).

Essentially we need to stop treating children like numbers and give teachers the time and support and freedom to do a good job. Sure, there are some crap, lazy teachers (as there are crap, lazy people in all jobs). You simply can't logically have a 100% above average workforce. But removing all responsibility and ownership from the pupils and hounding all teachers is helping nobody.

I'm sure there's more I can think of...

Oh and I actually kind of think parental choice of secondary school is a bad thing. Everyone should just have to send their child to their nearest school . I believe that's how it works in Finland, for example.

Peregrina · 26/05/2017 15:04

When Comprehensives first came in nationally the big criticism was that they were too big.

I think one of the problems is the age of selection - we would all be less upset if selection didn't happen until about 15, when children are beginning to show where their aptitudes lie. And less influenced by pushy parents (which I think it's hard not to be! Although some are more pushy than others.)

QuietCorday · 26/05/2017 15:39

Bertrand Can I ask what you mean by that? Presumably you had GCSEs and A levels just like them?

I knew I would get asked about this. Grin

The difference was that, in our comp, we were taught the material we needed to know for the exams, but nothing more. By contrast, my grammar and private school peers at university had a far wider-ranging knowledge set and understanding of the subject.

A good way to describe it would be the way we were taught French. For five years, we were, more or less, drilled to regurgitate sentences for the GCSE. So although many of us got fairly good grades, we couldn't actually communicate in French beyond asking for a bunch of grapes or telling someone what our name was or where we lived. We were never taught, for example, how to conjugate the verb "to be" into the plural form in French. My private-schooled friends, however, were somewhere around B2 on the Common European Framework with only a GCSE. They could actually have a passable conversation with a French person in French.

The same went for English literature. I got extremely high grades, but we were, again, drilled on the set texts and never taught anything about how those texts fit into the larger literary canon or that, indeed, there was even a larger literary canon. My grammar school and privately-schooled peers were, however, taught all this.

So when I went to university, I spent my first and second year trying to catch up with what these students all already knew in this regard. It was an enormous amount of work. The schism between my knowledge at 18 and their knowledge was vast.

I would say I was schooled in an area at a time that could be described as the point where if the comprehensive system could work, it should have worked then. Everyone in my area, bar a few very wealthy families, sent their children to the local comprehensive. The nearest grammar wasn't really a consideration for anybody as you needed to drive your child to the school and it was a time when almost every family either only had one car that was solely for the use of a parent getting to work or didn't have a car at all.

Yet, despite a wide mix of children from different socio-economic backgrounds, it just didn't work. Nobody achieved their potential. It is notable that many of my former school mates spent their late teens, 20s and even 30s in further education to achieve what they should have done at 16 and 18. And these people were not "late developers"; they just were not taught properly or encouraged to have confidence or aspirations.

And I am not just talking about academic qualifications either. My comp stopped access to the car pit in the CDT workshop in my second year, and stopped the CDT lunchtime workshops as well. So all the lads that were interested in car mechanics, joinery or engineering found that route for further learning closed down to them.

To some extent, I agree with headofthe4hive when she says I think a lot of comprehensives are actually secondary moderns. This is certainly true in my experience, and that of my former schoolfriends with children going through the system, and that of my DH's friends.

One thing my comp experience (and my subsequent teaching experiences) did teach me, however, was that almost every child in Britain without significant learning difficulties will be very good at something that, in some way, maps back to an academic subject. It's very difficult to be a good joiner and not have a good, working grasp of geometry, for example.

To my mind, what we have is an old-fashioned, classical divide between academic and technical/craft/trade when really this divide is now a false dichotomy between theory and practice. But theory informs practice and visa versa. We need to recognise this, and develop our education system so we support the application of academic disciplines.

I would support a system where grammars and technical schools worked hand-in-hand with cross-fertilisation between the two institutions and pupil migration between the two systems.

Draylon · 26/05/2017 16:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kesstrel · 26/05/2017 17:11

Why don't we have these Big Conversations instead of a constant looking back to the 'good old days' of 'written off at 11'?

Teachers are making arguments about the importance of ensuring good behaviour on blogs and social media. However, they are up against other teachers, as well as powerful 'educationalists' who disagree with them. That includes the Guardian Education section, read by many teachers, pressure groups, academics in education departments of universities, etc. In addition, there are also many parents who would object very strongly to a more disciplinary style of behaviour management. - this can be seen on any thread about the subject on Mumsnet - there was one recently.

kesstrel · 26/05/2017 17:28

Quiet What you've described is something I've observed before; it reflects the 'ceiling effect' that lumps all A grades into one level, giving no indication of the fact that some may be well above the others in attainment. This of course doesn't matter on paper, but may well do in Oxbridge entrance exams and interviews, for example, as well as affecting how well pupils do at A levels and at university. It's especially noticeable for foreign languages, where what you need to be able to do to get an A at GCSE really isn't that taxing, especially with so many schools effectively letting pupils memorise and recite their oral controlled assessments.

onceandneveragain · 26/05/2017 17:33

Yes, because I had a shit time at my comprehensive school. Not that grammars are the only solution - if all comprehensives were committed to catering to both ends of the spectrum that would be a better solution, but if I had a higher ability child and the comprehensive option was one that (like mine) did not teach in ability sets (apart from Maths and English) I would try and get them into a grammar if at all possible.

Being with other children who were interested in learning would have been a dream come true for me between the ages of 11-16!

Draylon · 26/05/2017 17:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Splodgeinc · 26/05/2017 17:46

Really interesting point draylon.

I went to a "good" comp in an area with no grammars in the 2000s but several private schools. My parents were ideologicaly against selective schooling so wouldn't let me sit for scholarships.

I hated school. It was fairly large - 9 form entry but still struggled to get decent top set, people in top maths not string the higher paper etc. Triple science at GCSE was not offered as too few wanted to do it. I was always on track for As and had the best results by far. I was bullied for being academic which could have happened anywhere I guess but the bigger issues was the lack of academic rigour.

What Kess says is so true, taught to memorises GCSE french oral! Also in English lit we only read the chapters of Romeo and Juliet that the exam was on and watched the video! Yep we were not required to read the whole text! This was top set.

It also failed the low achievers tho, the GCSE result I am most proud of us a C in history, not my C but that of friend in history class, he only got 3 GCSEs and this was his best grade, I did all of his coursework and drilled him for the exam. He's now a builder and has done well for himself (and built my conservatory) He also hated school and a technical education would have benefited him rather than being made to feel a failure from day one.

Not sure what the answer is, super large comps maybe, that can offer academic and non academic streams?

Splodgeinc · 26/05/2017 17:46

Sorry for above typos, on phone with boob monster baby attached!

kesstrel · 26/05/2017 18:07

Eolian I worry about the effects of abandoning league tables etc, although I also can't see any other way of getting rid of the outrageous pressure being put on teachers, and the decrease in holding pupils accountable. I suspect that if some government doesn't do it soon, however, we are going to end up with a very, very serious shortage of teachers.

The problem I see with enforcing discipline in schools is that too many people with power either won't do it, or don't believe in it. I seem to remember that the government's initiative in penalising schools financially for permanent exclusions was welcomed as a positive step by the education press and many other powerful voices, for example. Also, as I said above, a lot of parents would disagree with it as well.

Regarding sending their children to the closest school: from my reading about Finnish education, the provision there is fairly uniform, with schools that are pretty orderly, and that (until very recently) largely use traditional teaching methods, the kind that are so often frowned on in this country. Our local school has a captive market, due to our location, and they use this to carry on with their mixed ability philosophy (no setting at all except for maths). I would be very surprised if they could get away with this if parents had another school to choose that used setting.

RoseandVioletcreams · 26/05/2017 18:12

Quiet I was also interested to know this - thank you for your detailed response to Bertrand.

One thing my comp experience (and my subsequent teaching experiences) did teach me, however, was that almost every child in Britain without significant learning difficulties will be very good at something that, in some way, maps back to an academic subject. It's very difficult to be a good joiner and not have a good, working grasp of geometry, for example

To my mind, what we have is an old-fashioned, classical divide between academic and technical/craft/trade when really this divide is now a false dichotomy between theory and practice. But theory informs practice and visa versa. We need to recognise this, and develop our education system so we support the application of academic disciplines

^^ Totally agree. I think we need more variety not less.

RoseandVioletcreams · 26/05/2017 18:17

also agree in making parents far more accountable to the school and disciplining their dc. if that doesnt work - then force parenting work shops get others involved etc

kesstrel · 26/05/2017 18:17

Draylon The Guardian basically deals with the behaviour issue by largely ignoring it. They have Secret Teacher articles, week after week, that deal with all sorts of marginal topics, but they never address behaviour.. They have lots of articles about the teacher workload problem, about SATS, about similar problem areas. When behaviour does come up, it is usually will be in the context of demonising schools like Michaela for their strict behaviour policies.

But there is nothing surprising in this: if you read the endless threads about private schools and grammar schools on Mumsnet, you'll see a number of people claiming that behaviour problems in comps are minimal, and are being deliberately exaggerated by those who want a justification for sending their children to private or grammar schools.

TestTubeTeen · 26/05/2017 18:23

"Also in English lit we only read the chapters of Romeo and Juliet that the exam was on and watched the video! Yep we were not required to read the whole text! This was top set. "

This sort of thing is rife in Grammars and top sets and every other set. Have you looked at the curriculum and revision books set out by the main exam boards? I blame the National Curriculum and the reductive 'what to think / how to succeed within the mark scheme' rather than 'how to think, question and explore' approach of my own ye olde education. (O levels).

BoneyBackJefferson · 26/05/2017 18:33

TestTubeTeen

Lets not forget that in the golden days of education only those that were pretty much guaranteed to pass were put forward for 'O' levels.
So lets not play the 'O' levels were better card because it is bull.

BertrandRussell · 26/05/2017 18:36

Ye olde O levels. Which most people did not take.......

Peregrina · 26/05/2017 18:49

Ye olde O levels. Which most people did not take.......

And of the 60 in the year at my grammar school, half (yes 30) got less than 5. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for the school.

TestTubeTeen · 26/05/2017 23:30

Well fair enough, on ye olde O levels issue: but that is what I am saying. The PP was complaining about the paucity of challenge in the English Lit exams at her comp. This century, I am saying that it was't because it was a comp, it is because of the curriculum / syllabus, which will be the same in grammar schools.

I do stand by the argument that what we were expected to do at O level in English Lit was more demanding than the curriculum now demands. But I do not believe that selective education is required in order to challenge children. It can be done in a comp.

Headofthehive55 · 27/05/2017 06:59

IT could be test but isn't due to the make up of the comp.
I agree with the points by eolian regarding behaviour management.
We objected to the amount of films being shown to our DD - we got to 25 one half term and little homework.
The tutor pointed out our DD and said we can't show you films anymore - hives mum has been up to school. Can you imagine the grief she got?

I do think you should be allowed to take your business elsewhere.

BertrandRussell · 27/05/2017 07:37

Head-I think you've established that the school your dd went to was a bit crap. What did the police say about the assault, by the way?

BertrandRussell · 27/05/2017 07:38

And 25 films in a half term? Blimey-that's practically one a day!

kesstrel · 27/05/2017 07:48

Testtube
it is because of the curriculum / syllabus,

In my daughter's case, they only read parts of their Shakespeare play because that part of the syllabus was being tested by controlled assessment (coursework). But coursework was brought in with the idea that it would be more accessible to a wider range of abilities, and also encourage thought and exploration. The problem is that it also made it temptingly easy for schools to teach only to the coursework question (as my daughter's school did). The pressure to do this is stronger, however, in classes with a wider range of ability, because more of the available teaching time needs to be directed toward the lower ability range in the class.

In order to get round this, teachers are told to 'differentiate'. But in reality, there's only so much differentiation that can be done in a limited amount of class time, and it also requires far more work from teachers (who are already overburdened). Again, the temptation for teachers is to rely on the belief (so often expressed on these pages) that 'brighter students will do well (i.e. get an A) wherever they are', while focusing most of their efforts on the strugglers.

So again, we're back to setting or a lack of it. In theory, these problems can be got round by appropriate setting. But only 53% of the English lessons Ofsted observed in secondary schools 7 years ago were set.

BTG3385 · 27/05/2017 07:53

I believe in schools providing the tools to help people in later life and to stimulate them whilst they are there.

You only really need two subject skills in life, Maths and English and the less able children should just focus on these two subjects. The rest of their time should be spent on subjects that they actually enjoy and that may help them find work in later life. IT, Design and technology, Home economics or whatever it is called now, Art, sport...I would also add subjects to help with this including skills training for work preparation and more work experience to help them

BertrandRussell · 27/05/2017 08:08

"You only really need two subject skills in life, Maths and English and the less able children should just focus on these two subjects"

Jesus. And exactly how and at what age are you going to differentiate the cannon fodder from the officer class?