To think scrapping tuition fees is a terrible idea

[bumbleymummy]

Just that really. Corbin saying he's going to scrap fees from September. Bloody stupid idea and something else that we can't afford to pay for.

I would rather the fees were reduced to maybe 3k a year and interest only chanrged once you graduate

Free would be great but probably not doable

9k+ a year is a massive amount and the interest rate is dreadful as well

user1477249785 access to education based on merit? Nope - not if you've already been failed due to not having parents able to support you, going to less than good primary and secondaries. There are many present barriers to access to university education that have NOTHING to do with fee payment.

AndNone i think a better way of putting this is saying we'll have more people going to university who will not benefit economically from the degrees they do.

If you can't make it pay, you should be looking into better alternative career options and the money should be spent there, not on free uni tuition which over-emphasizes this route.

NancyWake - but in Europe people largely attend their local university and take "units" rather than doing a 3-year set course. There is little notion of going off to have a good time and living in halls of residence etc.

No they don't, some students in France may choose their nearest uni as here, but unless there's a particularly good one in the nearest city, people often go elsewhere.

The Sorbonne in Paris is very popular, the Grande Ecoles, which are the equivalent of Oxbridge, are attended by people from all over France. Equally, some people to choose to study down in the south as the weather is good.

French degree courses are of comparable length to ours. French campuses tend to be more focused on study it's true, but French students go to uni to have a good time just as here.

Primary and secondary education should be free, not tertiary.

Fine, if uni courses were all about turning students into doctors and nurses, but we all know not all degrees are worth the investment (if I have a degree but end up working in McDonald's, is that worth the amount of investment I've put in, in terms of finance, time and energy? Or would I be better off working in McD's at 18 and then spending the next 3 years working up the McD corporate ladder, instead of starting out at 21?).

I'm constantly amazed at how this country is unable to find a better way wrt unis and fees. Where I come from, all unis have fees, but scholarships and loans are available for certain courses. So, if you were a bright spark with a string of As in public exams AND wanted to do medicine/engineering/sciences/law/accountancy then you could apply for a government scholarship or loan.

If you got a scholarship then you were bonded to work with the government for x number of years on graduation. If you got a loan then you had to pay it back - but if you got a 2:1 or above, then the government reduced the loan so that you only paid back something like 25% of the full amount.

Private companies in my country also offer scholarships; I have many friends who are now working for companies that sponsored them throughout uni.

I really don't understand why scholarships/loans aren't offered to students here.

One thing that concerns me is that 18 year olds may well vote Labour as a result of this without realising that even if Labour got in, the change would take a couple of years and wouldn't affect them.

I agree that we cannot have a massive increase in the numbers of people going to uni. But I think there is a much better way to control this than having it controlled by ability to pay, which is what some pp seem to be suggesting! Universities get to decide who to admit, and they aim to choose the most interested, talented students. So right now, I am guessing that the people who apply come from (mostly) the sections of society that can afford to get into debt. Then the university chooses who to offer places to out of this pool. If fees are dropped, then the pool of people who apply will hopefully widen to include the less well off. The university will then have a bigger pool to choose from, but don't need to choose more students overall. They should end up with a better intake this way, but no need to end up with a bigger intake.

Brexit is already screwing over university (especially research) funding. Scrapping tuition fees will add to the massive uncertainty in university funding streams as the amounts needed to plug the tuition fee hole, plus Brexit will be mind boggling. I protested against fees when they came in but we are some years down the road now. Better to invest in primary/secondary/vocational education and put efforts into encouraging many more and better bursaries, sponsorship etc for those who want to go to university. I do agreee that scrapping bursaries for teaching/nursing/midwifery etc is absolutely wrong.

I don't know if it's a good idea or a bad idea, but I have been surprised at how badly the idea of scrapping tuition fees has been received considering that Nick Clegg was practically Voldemort for not single-handedly stopping the Tories from increasing them. It seemed at the time that tuition fees were an awful thing, and now it would be beyond ridiculous to get rid of them.

It's almost as if the media and the general public don't care about the actual policy, just who announced it.

@ImperialBlether it does look like Labour have committed to making this happen pretty much immediately: www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39994886

If we think that universities are offering some courses that are not worthwhile - e.g. we don't think that anybody in our society needs to be an expert on that topic for any reason - then we should address that of course. But I think it could be taken as a separate issue.

babyhamster I agree with you re apprenticeships etc

I think the current loan system definitely has room for improvement e.g. Offering some kind of 'interest break' to people taking maternity/parental/sick leave and capping them etc but scrapping them completely goes too far imo.

YABU

yes to a full bursary/ no fees for nhs, teaching, social work. and pther posters have said that those students should sign a decalration saying that they will work in the nhs/ state school system for a certain amount of years. this way we can benefit from investing in their degree. i know too many teachers who do their pgce and nqt year and then leave. or Drs and nurses who leave as soon they qualify to australia.

Ifit, I was by no means 'rich' growing up or coming out of university.

Education is an investment. You're just conditioned to think otherwise.
I have a shit tonne of student debt and I think it's a great idea. The more educated society is, the better for everyone. Why should education mean being lumbered with a load of debt or only accessible for those who have the money? Think of all the talent that never comes to fruition.

University and education is a way to encourage social mobility and a chance to improve the lives of everyone. Stop being so blinkered.

Fflokl - that's exactly the type of thing that I would like to see. I can't see why it's not done here either.

There's a big difference between scrapping them and making them reasonable. At the moment they are far too high, the interest rates are an absolute disgrace, and the removal of burseries for nurses etc. is awful.

Isn't there a sensible middle ground?! Bring them back down to a level that makes people question if they really want to go to Uni. No interest until you have graduated, and then that interest is capped at inflation/CPI. Burseries and support for those doing degress in subjects we need but are not well paid (e.g. nurses, teachers).

This whole subject is an example of how stupid our politics is at the moment. We really have an option to vote for one extreme or the other. I suspect most people would prefer a middle ground.

Noone has answered my question about maintenance

Loans? Or back to grants?

"Why should education mean being lumbered with a load of debt "

You've answered this yourself - because it's an investment in your future

I don't think fees should be scrapped but I do think that certain degrees - those which lead to work in the NHS and social care should be free or at least very heavily subsidised. Other degrees should be means tested or fees reduced and there needs to be a complete overhaul as to what actually constitutes a degree level course and what doesn't. I would like to see far more apprenticeships and on the job training which lead to practical degree level qualifications. It used to be that you could go into things like accountancy from school and train on the job, why not go back to that?

I have no axe to grind personally as I didn't go to uni despite having the opportunity to go for free before tuition fees were introduced. But I think it's problematic to talk of tuition fees as a way of filtering out undesirables, which is what is being proposed. A degree in Classics, for example, would be of little use in a job as an engineer, but what's to say that person wouldn't get great satisfaction out of studying something they love before changing direction? Currently if their parents are wealthy then they can do that but if they grow up on a council estate they will have to consider whether they can afford the tuition fees which are off putting.

So in reality you may have a group of middle class kids whose life plan is school then uni then masters degree then work, whereas the working class kids have to weigh up whether they can afford to rack up a load of debt at the age of 18, who may well have gone on to be really successful in their careers given financial security, but have been too worried to take the plunge.

We will never be able to truly create a meritocratic society if we stifle the life chances of poorer kids by applying such high tuition fees, as if you grow up in straitened circumstances you are usually less likely to take on debt because you have been witness to what it can do and how it can wreck lives.

Finally, if you want a job at a Russell Group university, even the most basic administration job, they ask for a degree. In anything. Just as long as you are educated to degree level.

I can't afford to pay mine back.

"Isn't there a sensible middle ground?! Bring them back down to a level that makes people question if they really want to go to Uni. No interest until you have graduated, and then that interest is capped at inflation/CPI. Burseries and support for those doing degress in subjects we need but are not well paid (e.g. nurses, teachers). "

Exactly shamoo

On the fence about this one. I hate that young people are starting out with big debts, but I'm also not happy about paying (via taxes or whatever) for every tin-pot college, sorry 'university' with a shitty, substandard course either. And, as noLotterywinyet says, it also means everyone who doesn't go would now be paying for them.

I'd rather see less so called 'university' degrees, and more vocational training and apprenticeships.

FWIW, OP, I totally agree with you that university isn't for everybody and that we need a really highly esteemed technical apprenticeships program. But I just think that the criteria should be based on your interests and aptitudes rather than about what you can afford.

I am an amateur family historian and it's really striking how work/careers used to be based pretty much entirely around what your parents did -- coal miners born of coal miners born of coal miners etc. And then in the 1950s and 1960 you suddenly began to see the bright children of those same families going to university and becoming journalists, teachers, doctors. It actually gives me goosebumps to think about what an extraordinary change free primary, secondary and higher education has made to society.