To ask what 'work hard' means to you? In relation to earnings

[Workhard45]

This phrase often starts a debate (especially now with elections around the corner) and I wanted to know what it means to you.

It's often mentioned when someone tries to explain why they earn so much. Then low earners are offended because they too work hard. First off, I think everyone(well, almost) works hard, but there are different versions of hard work and some gain you more money.

To me, 'work hard' is not just the physical (e.g. Working 3 minimum wage jobs to feed your family - though of course this is hard work!) but rather a long-term thing. So, working hard/smart from GCSE to uni to workplace. I also think 'hard work' can be mental. People often say their managers don't work hard because they don't break a sweat - I don't think you have to to be working 'hard'.
I also think part of this involves making hard choices such as picking a boring job that pays more over one you are passionate about but pays less. Fair enough not everyone picks jobs just for their earning potential, but then I don't think you should then moan about the low pay after if you've traded income for passion.

This has turned out longer than I intended - apologies! I'm interested in other people's definitions of 'work hard'.

I work hard, getting paid to have difficult conversations that managers on triple my pay don't want to have.

However the buck also does not stop with me - there are people who are paid more than me and have more responsibility who have to make much more difficult decisions. I don't have the experience or skill set yet to be in that role, therefore they deserve to earn more.

I also worked hard at school, risking the wrath of the "cooler kids" i.e. Bullies who would rip school books off you and burn them. Or when they put one girl in hospital for getting higher than a C in an exam. Or who left me with a six inch scar on my leg as a reminder for being a swot.

I regularly see them on Facebook moaning about how they deserve better, should be entitled to more money - but yet have no qualifications because they didn't want to work hard at school and abused those who did.

You can work hard no matter what job you are in. They all come with different elements and levels of stress.

It's easy to say managers, Directors, people in well paid jobs etc have worked hard to get where they are at and of course that is true. But everyone has a different set of skills and some people just aren't cut out to be leaders. Doesn't mean they don't work hard, it means their skills lie elsewhere.

I work in a low paid job which can be stressful at times. Could I have trained to become a lawyer or something like that? No, because it's something I don't understand and I'd be no good at. I don't think I should be paid as much as a lawyer, but everyone should be able to a wage that is enough to live on. Sadly a lot of people are not these days.

I don't think there's a notion that if you work hard you're guaranteed a good living, at least not for me.

I know there are thousands of people who work very hard and earn very little. I think this is wrong.

However, I think the "I am well-paid but I work hard" comes from the assumption that you're "lucky" to earn a lot which makes it sound like you don't work hard IYSWIM? You're just lucky.

Well, I was lucky. But I also worked hard. My DBro was also lucky (in terms of childhood, supportive parents, relatively intelligent etc.) but he didn't work hard. Not like me. He coasted through school and uni. He never pushed himself, and you can see the differences in what we've achieved career-wise. I'm not saying I'm better than he is, we just made different choices and our skills that we developped are paid for differently.

I still want to emphasise that I believe certain populations are paid an embarassingly small amount, considering we live in a rich country. And they should be paid more.

But I don't think that all NMW jobs should be paid more. We live in a capitalist country, the rarer your skills, the more you will earn. I think for example that chambermaiding is a bloody exhausting job. But anyone can do it (pretty much), so it's never going to pay well. Performing 18 hour surgeries is also a bloody exhausting job. But far fewer people can do it, and there are a lot more responsabilities than chambermaiding so obviously it's going to pay better.

And hard work is a totally meaningless phrase.

Far better for a higher earner to say that a late capitalist society values their job more than other jobs. And the flipside for low earners, modern capitalism simply doesn't value their job. Which is totally rubbish when it is a job like a home carer, who is literally deal with shit, but the individual concerned earns less than minimum wage because they are not paid for travel time.

I think it can be that sometimes people who are higher earners are seen as having been given their job because of 'connections' or 'old school tie', rather than having clawed their way through school and uni and professional exams to even get on the ladder in the first place.

What an interesting discussion. I'm often appalled on MN at how little some people are paid for very responsible jobs (sounds like yours is one of those, Leonardo44).

My job is one of those where you often hear people bigging up how hard they work (management consulting). And yes, sometimes it is hard - I've just spent 10 months living in a hotel for 4 nights a week, working pretty long hours with a client team who didn't really want us to be there and made it pretty clear. That's incredibly draining, especially as you feel that you need to win them round as well as doing a good job for them. But I get well paid, and it's my choice to do something that messes up so much of my life so effectively! In my time, I've also done bar work, cleaning, nannying and all sorts of other things which are equally hard (or harder) in different ways - and which pay a LOT less.

Way back in 2003 Polly Toynbee wrote a book about it (Hard Work) - it's still very much worth reading for anyone who thinks that there's a direct correlation between what you do and what you get paid. www.goodreads.com/book/show/991577.Hard_Work - if you google it there appears to be a PDF of the book available online, and I do recommend it.

Dh works very hard in his job

But he also appreciates that he is lucky to

A) have a job that happens to pay well

B) to be capable of doing the job

C) to 'enjoy' the job

And Nickeled and Dimed by Barbara Ehenrich is almost twenty years old but a brilliant book for understanding the low pay market in the US

And Nickeled and Dimed by Barbara Ehenrich is almost twenty years old but a brilliant book for understanding the low pay market in the US

I would say that everyone who earns a lot works hard, but that not everyone who works hard earns a lot. Jobs are paid according to what skills are of value to the market, not according to how hard people work.

That's why a software programmer like my dh gets paid more than the prime minister (also doctors, nurses, social workers ...), even though he doesn't manage anyone & only works 40 hours a week. Yes, he works hard during that time and he's good at what he does but that's not why he earns so much - his high wage is due to the fact that his skills happen to be in high demand at the moment.

Fwiw, he was working for himself earning much less but providing jobs (employed 10 people) and loving it until family circumstances changed and he had to focus on the money. We are lucky that he could earn so much more. But neither of us is motivated by money, and I've always found it weird when people assume that everyone's lives are geared towards earning potential.

Aargh *which skills - not what skills!

Isn't it all cognitive dissonance really?

I mean people know that large swathes of the country are doing crap, hard graft everyday for shit money. So they convince themselves that it's because those people didn't work as hard as them, didn't concentrate at school (totally ignoring the fact that school outcomes largely depend on your family environment) and the reason they get paid more is that they worked for it.

Look at the recent thread on tipping. Solicitor telling the Cleaner she should have worked harder if she wanted tips and she got paid so shouldn't expect any extra. Ignoring the fact well paid jobs often give bonuses of course.

When I refer to myself as "working hard" it's to reflect the fact I never truly have down time. There are periods where I'm not in the office and might actually be doing something seemingly enjoyable but I never shut off. I can't remember a holiday where I haven't had to fit at least a couple of calls into most days.

If there's a crisis I get called. If there's a big crisis it's not just my job on the line it's those of many, many people.

Sometimes I long for a job that would allow me the opportunity to switch off at 5pm and not think about it again until 9am.

I earn a lot - but I do a highly complex job, work a lot more than 9-5 and my company expects that when I am on holiday I am still in contact, so I sometimes do calls/send emails on holiday. I also sometimes have to work over the weekend It is mentally stressful rather than physically

I really don't think there is any relationship at all between 'working hard' and earnings.

I have previously worked in minimum wage jobs and worked up to a well above average salary and IME whether someone works hard or is a bit of a slacker is much more related to their personality than their earnings.

Earnings are more related to sector than anything else. Some sectors like finance and management pay well, some like care or manual work pay less, for example.

People who earn lots say they get that salary because they work hard, and that does imply that people who are on low pay are more lazy. I see it a lot on MN and it always makes me very cross.

I would say I work "hard", and part of the reason I'd say that is my job needed a good degree (I didn't work particularly hard at university, until the last few months, granted), then 4+ years of studying along side (more than) full-time work, which was tough and stressful and utterly relentless at the time.

I also frequently work extra hours and travel and of course never get paid anything extra or get the time back. My job carries a lot of responsibility (financial), which can also be stressful. There are a lot of deadlines, which are also stressful.

But while at university I had a job in a busy call centre, and fuck me, that was stressful, low-paid, and utterly soul destroying. That is, without a doubt, the "hardest" I've worked.

I also suspect that a nurse or doctor in A&E on a busy night is working much "harder", and the doctors also have exams to do in their spare time too. And rather than the responsibility being just financial/reputational like my work, it's much more serious. So I'd call that "hard", properly hard. Paramedics have a really, really hard job too.

What about those of us who didn't have to work hard at school to get top marks- what do we deserve to be paid?

Whispering Loudly - I know exactly what you mean.

Thinking further about this. Higher paid jobs are often much, much longer hours. So thinking about my multiple concept. Ft nmw would be 35-40hours whereas ceo probably is double that at 70/80 hours. Therefore actual pay would be forty times because working double the time.

It would be interesting if all jobs were clear about hourly pay even if paid annual. Eg teachers work 50/60 hours a week and therefore pay seems comparatively low

I think that one factor (and one of many) is that working 'hard' in low paid, thankless work is relentless, bleak and unsatisfying where as working 'hard' in a highly paid, well respected profession gives you (one would expect, in the main) a sense of personal satisfaction and pride.

I think maintaining your stamina, standards and optimism when you're in the former position is hard work in itself. It's a weariness that those who have always succeeded or achieved won't have experienced.

Neither of these things negates the other. It shouldn't be a competition as to who has the hardest life. But while we need people in the economy who turn up, slog it out and get nowhere day after day, it would be nice if we could recognise them a bit more.

I totally agree creepy Working hard for no money, no status, when you are scraping by or not quite making ends meet is very stressful in itself.

Slightly different point but the book The Spirit Level is about income inequality (as opposed to wealth inequality, which is a separate matter), and mentions how the stress of income inequality on the people at either end of the scale (ie very high and very low earners) is actually damaging to the health & wellbeing of society as a whole.

I think DH and I "work hard".

We both did well at school, uni and then undertook further specialist qualifications with lots of revision and exams etc.

We both leave the house at 6.30am, commute for 2 hours into London, work from 8.30 to a minimum of 6pm (DH often works much later) then commute the 2 hours back home.

We both have jobs that involve attending evening events, travel etc with no extra pay or time off in lieu.

Laptops come on holiday with us. We both have jobs where we are expected to pick up and deal with emails after hours, at weekends. DH often does a few hours work in a Sunday.
And it's mentally tough work too with high responsibility.

I wouldn't say people who leave the house at 8.30am, do a regular 9-5 and are home by 6pm work hard. Not saying they are lazy, just think they are average.

People often don't consider the value of skills and knowledge when it comes to this. You don't have to go to university to gain a skill that is really valuable and helps you to earn well, in this context hard work is more about persistence and really making the effort to do your job as well as you possibly can. I do think different people are naturally skilled in different areas.

The guy I used for getting my wooden floors fitted was earning as much as many in professional jobs but his work was absolutely perfect and he had put a lot of work into learning those skills (compared to your average flooring fitter from Carpetright who just does the minimum to get the job done quickly).

Or you have skilled professional jobs where a huge amount of effort and resilience has gone into learning it and maintaining a high standard - when I've bought and sold my homes in the past I've been happy to pay more to a solicitor who I know is great at what he does and super careful to cover every possibility.

iwant

Leaving out the commute i think that people who work 9-5 can work incredibly hard during that period of time

You work hard for longer

So in effect you may work harder

Only fools and horses work