Is something the wrong way round here...?

[TheBadgersMadeMeDoIt]

5yr old DD's school is pretty heavy on the homework. One of this term's home learning tasks is to get familiar with the concept of fractions. Over the weekend we cut shapes out of coloured paper and practiced dividing them into halves, quarters and thirds. Then we started working on "how many quarters make a half? etc... It was clear to me from her puzzled expression that there had been no introduction to fractions in class so I was trying, inexpertly, to teach her from first principles. I'm ok with that in itself, but...

Yesterday she came home from school with a bag full of pictures she'd coloured in. I asked her what else she'd done in school and she said they all went outside and practiced riding balance bikes.

Now, I know this isn't typical of every day at school, but how come I'm teaching her fractions on a Saturday (among many other home learning projects that take up a chunk of every weekend)...and then she goes to school to learn to ride a bike and do colouring in?

Is it just me?

Oliversmumsarmy

So do you think we should all start school at 7? And the children whose parents can't be bothered with homework, or haven't taught them anything at home? Do you believe they will catch up by magic? Without a much deeper cultural shift towards truly valuing education, respecting teaching staff and expecting more of of our children in terms of behaviour and work ethic as they get older, all this would do (IMO) is cause a regression.

We've had this. Made doubly hard by the fact that my dd couldn't read what the homework was let alone understand how to do it (didn't get the hang of reading and writing 'til the end of year 2). Lots were ignored for this very reason.

Yes starting school at 7 seems an excellent idea.
By which time children wouldn't need the constant supervision that you have with setting 4 year olds homework and the parents would be a lot fresher and not have had 3 years of struggling with trying to get a 4/5/6 year old to do homework which is beyond their capabilities to do it alone or with just a cursory supervision.

It works in every other country so why not here.

It is like potty training. Try starting a child at a very young age before they are ready. Tell them they have to do it. You stand about waiting and encouraging and not letting them off the potty till they have performed and all it leads to is a crying stressed child with issues around toileting and a stressed out parent. Leave it till they are a lot older and some will have picked it up and the rest will be ready to go and get there in a short space of time. It happens with out the stress and makes for happy child and parent all round and a child who has no issues going .

So yes to starting school at 7 is what all the educational experts and studies recommend. Why would you go against them.

Oliversmumsarmy

It doesn't work in 'every other country'. It works in countries with homogenous cultures - less difference in the standard of living between different sections of the demographic, strong work ethic and value accorded to education and school overall. In this country, where we have entrenched poverty, children turning up at school at 4 in nappies expecting to spend all day in a sandpit, where parents are 'exhausted' by the idea of doing homework with their children and thoroughly offended by the concept that their child's education and behaviour are their responsibility even more than those of the education system, I cannot see it working. I don't mind much either way, I just don't think it would help to improve standards.

7 is very old and my children were ready to start at 5. I would advocate letting them start school either at 5 or 6 but keeping it play based for at least 2 years and not setting any h/w until they are older. They should also give parents the option to send part time. That way the school's can offer support to those who haven't I got the home support.

I was upset by the size of the jump from reception to year 1 and thankful my son was autumn born. Another year of reception type learning would have been fine for him.

Just a snippet from the BBC website about unhappiness in children. South Korea being the only country that had more unhappy children than those in the UK. South Korea start children at 3

Whilst the findings do not indicate why children in England feel more unhappy than others, Kevin Courtney, deputy general secretary of the National Union of Teachers blamed poor mental health on the "narrow curriculum" and "exam factories" culture in schools.
He said children were too often branded "failures" when barely into primary education, and tests at all stages of school life could lead to "serious stress-related anxiety

Yes we are in the top 10 of literacy rates in the world along with south Korea but amongst those other countries on the top 10 are mainly countries that don't start there children in school till at least 6. Russia being the top ... As start age for school age 6+

If I ask DD what she has done at school I either get 'I forgot' or a long tale of playground antics. Nonetheless, she is certainly learning stuff I haven't taught her so I don't worry.

Like PP I disagree with the whole idea of homework if it is not something that the child can manage alone. It seriously disadvantages those children whose parents can't or won't help.

However, I don't think it is unreasonable for a 5 year old to start understanding fractions. It's not about mathematical fractions, it's about understanding e.g. sharing cake/apples/sweets fairly between x children. And 'write a poem' at that age is surely about thinking of rhyming words, not about being able to actually spell them.

And isn't some if that entrenched poverty because children are written off so early on that they don't have opportunity to catch up.

Ds if I didn't care or wasn't able to put my business to one side would be one who would have fell between the cracks.

He is never going to go to university or wear a suit to work but after many hours showing him different types of careers, asking him to look at different people in the workplace and study what they do he has found something he is interested in.

How many children don't have that opportunity.

By the time I pulled ds out of school in year 3 he was a shell of his former self. I sent a bright bubbly little boy off to school at just turned 4 years old and 3 years later he was suffering from what can only be described as a form of PTSD.

The almost religious fervour that adhering to the curriculum was all they could teach was frightening.

"Yes I am aware your son cannot read or write but the homework states he must write a letter to a Planning Officer. Failure to complete the homework set will result in him being kept in every break until he has completed the homework"

Was the last straw when I realised he hadn't even been getting lunch because he hadn't completed previous homework.

And 'write a poem' at that age is surely about thinking of rhyming words, not about being able to actually spell them

Spelling is a side issue. For a lot of children they have trouble writing individual letters let alone spelling them.

Ds in reception a paragraph was dictated to the class . I was called in and told off because he had written squiggles and random letters and numbers. He hadn't got a clue.
All I was told was it was unacceptable.

I should have pulled him out there and then. That is my biggest regret

So yes to starting school at 7 is what all the educational experts and studies recommend. Why would you go against them.

I guess it depends what you mean by "school" - obviously your DS's school was a shitshow but my Y1 DS is still definitely "learning through play" in a very nurturing environment.

And certainly experts and studies have shown that poor children in the UK who don't start school until 5 (let alone 7) will on average never catch up. A little light Duplo whilst chatting with other children and under a leader casually counting and pointing out colours goes a long way. Is that "school"?

I agree that it's inappropriate for under-7s to be sitting in rows drilling times tables, but "being at school" can be so much more than that.

And that's before we take into account that it takes a fucking long time to learn to read and write English which is not properly phonetically spelt nor intuitively representative, but rather based on mystical etymology (in some cases false etymology, see eg "often"). If you're Finnish/Italian/Korean and you have a nice comfortable truly 1-to-1 spelling system then it isn't going to take as long to master it!

And certainly experts and studies have shown that poor children in the UK who don't start school until 5 (let alone 7) will on average never catch up

Is that because these children don't have the input that other children have at 4/5/6 to achieve so fall behind and as I said before there is no safety net.
Whilst if children didn't start school until 7 then they wouldn't need so much input from parents and so might have a chance and wouldn't be written off before the age a lot of countries haven't even started school

A little light Duplo whilst chatting with other children and under a leader casually counting and pointing out colours goes a long way. Is that "school

If your ds is year 1 and that is what he is doing then good luck. SATS are next year, hopefully the school your son is in won't freak out.

I think I explained poorly.

Disadvantaged children are given funding for EYFS education from 2 because it's proven to close the gap. In their case, "school" at 2 gives a distinct advantage over staying at home. They can learn to speak English, recognise their name written down, count to ten, put their own coats on, use the toilet including washing hands, flick through a book, play cooperatively with other children etc (that was my leader with Duplo point).

Meanwhile, my child's school downplays SATS - tbh their catchment means they don't have to try particularly hard, but the children don't notice they've sat them and that's a point of pride for the KS1 team and leadership.

This week I helped with a Lego session organised as part of school's mental health promotion. They regularly take children outside to draw maths on the playground in chalk or to visit the tadpoles in the pond. It's about as far from classic Victorian rote learning in rows as you can get (normal community primary school, no religious or academy connection).

Oliversmumsarmy in regard to Russian children starting later and doing better - have you ever met a Russian parent? They a brutal in their expectations of their children's achievement - work is done all through holidays and education is highly valued and taken seriously. I can assure you that all the children of Russian parents that I have taught ALWAYS do their homework and their parent wouldn't dream of undermining the teacher by not doing it. Education is massively cultural, like comparing apples and pears.

Jellymuffin

Agreed completely. A system of starting school later might work if parents, on the whole, had more respect for what teachers are asking students to do. I've read hundreds of comments on here saying homework should be optional, teachers are being unreasonable to punish if homework isn't done, it has nothing to do with parents, don't punish at home for something that is the 'school's problem' etc. Some genuinely shocking attitudes.

What we need is a good kindergarten system from age 3 like other countries have (where kids certainly do learn!) but not to start the more formal school bit until Y2 age at least.

Oliversmumsarmy in regard to Russian children starting later and doing better - have you ever met a Russian parent? They a brutal in their expectations of their children's achievement - work is done all through holidays and education is highly valued and taken seriously.

The Russian children I know certainly don't sound like the description.