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Labours Increase in personal tax over £80k

438 replies

OliviaPopeRules · 16/05/2017 11:25

So Labour have finally announced their 'moderate' tax increase for people over £80k.
These changes mean that if you have a household where one person earns £150k you will pay tax of £58k approx. but if you have a household of 2 people earning £75k you will pay total tax of approx. £37k.

I appreciate a lot of people will think tough shit, you earns lot so screw you but can someone really explain to me how this is not just a tax to punish.

And yes I understand people on lower incomes and disability support and other benefits need to more support and I personally have no problem paying extra tax but this makes the tax system so unequal for couples/ families with only 1 person working.

OP posts:
PigletWasPoohsFriend · 17/05/2017 07:57

Corporations are here because of our consumer economy, our educated workforce and our stable legal system. They will understand.

No they won't just 'understand'. Corporations will move if tax etc goes up too much. They wouldn't have much business sense if they didn't!

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 17/05/2017 08:05

seawitchy

I agree i dont think many people will leave the country

But people earning around £123000 will start jiggling their options around for payrise and jobs in the same way that many people on the cusp of tax bands and paybands do

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 17/05/2017 08:11

I think if the government removed that weird tax band we have at the moment where people pay tax of 62% (i think, it might be 60%)

Its only on about 20k but currently if the tax rate goes up it will be at nearly70%

Not massive amounts but its over half of what you earn at that point, why bother earning it

Once you get to over £150,000, although with national insutance it will still be just over 70%, i think the money and perks may start balancing out.

I dont mean in a poor tax payer way there i just mean that people will start thinking whether they feel earning those slightly higher amounts make sense to them

Sionella · 17/05/2017 08:27

Make - are you one of these high earners? You sure seem to know a lot about how they think...

JassyRadlett · 17/05/2017 08:31

I'm still grinning at the suggestion on page 1 that £21k childcare costs are somehow unusual or exceptional/very short term.

Must mention to nursery and after school club.

Justanotherlurker · 17/05/2017 09:01

For those still saying it is a scare tactic, you do realise what happened in france?

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/france-drops-75percent-supertax

With brexit on the horizon there may not be a mass exodus, but if you just assume that people will not walk is slightly naive also

ohforfoxsake · 17/05/2017 09:01

Surely we just need an alternative to children going hungry in school holidays, the elderly dying on hospital trollies and seeing mentally ill people homeless on the streets of our big cities?

What we have at the moment is tragic. I can't see how it can get any better if the Tories stay in power.

I'll embrace any alternative that might offer a speck of hope.

But mostly I want our young people to engage. I want them to register to vote and value that vote. They'll be the ones paying the price.

Sionella · 17/05/2017 09:03

I can't believe people think high earners won't leave. Haven't they heard of a brain drain?!

Headofthehive55 · 17/05/2017 09:05

Lots of people on that sort of salary work for companies in a more global sense. They may live here (nominally) but could easily choose to get paid elsewhere.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 17/05/2017 09:05

I'll embrace any alternative that might offer a speck of hope.

That hope has to be realistic though. You can promise the earth and offer as many alternatives as you like. It means nothing however if it can't happen. All that breeds is more problems.

Two4One2017 · 17/05/2017 09:13

With Macron looking to slash taxes in France and Ireland already undercutting our current corporation tax rate (12.5% vs 19%), with Brexit uncertainty, watch the banks start to get twitchy.....they will take the highly paid bankers with them.

For example, JP Morgan secured a lease on a building in Ireland on Monday to house 1,000.

Increasing taxes (business and personal, because don't forget companies, under Labour, will have to pay an additional levy on the salaries of the highly paid in addition to higher CT, 4 more bank holidays, more red tape) in addition to Brexit will significantly reduce financial services.

Killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

Sionella · 17/05/2017 09:14

this

OliviaPopeRules · 17/05/2017 09:17

JassyRadlett

If you have 2 parents earning 75k, for preschool aged kids they will get 30 hours per week free childcare (it may only be for 38 weeks I'm not 100% sure) but this should cover most childcare costs for under 4/5's before they start school.
So unless you have 4+ kids in after school club I do find it hard to believe you would be spending 21k and I do think you would be the exception not the rule.

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Two4One2017 · 17/05/2017 09:23

From Tim Knox, The Centre for Policy Studies:

"According to HMRC, a one percentage point increase in corporation tax will raise around £2.4 billion. So, Labour seems to have calculated that an increase in corporation tax rate by seven percentage points to 26 per cent would yield £19.4 billion compared to the government’s planned cut to 17 per cent (there is a small adjustment because small businesses would see receipts go up more slowly).

But this calculation is problematic. Not least it overlooks the fact that a cut in the corporation tax rate from 28 per cent in 2010-11 to 19 per cent has been associated with an increase in onshore corporation tax receipts of 44 per cent since 2011-12. Counter intuitive maybe, but undeniable. Perhaps the recent cuts in corporation tax have meant that more companies have chosen to invest in the UK, have employed more people (the UK is enjoying record employment rates) and have also encouraged more individuals to set up their own companies so that they can enjoy a lower rate of tax. In other words, over the last six years, companies and people have changed the way they behave so that they benefit from the lower rate of tax to such an extent that tax receipts have actually gone up. And yet Labour seems to believe that doing the exact opposite will increase tax receipts even more.

Similarly, Labour has claimed that increasing income tax rates for the top 5 per cent of earners could raise up to £6.4 billion a year. If you ask the question of whether higher earners already pay their fair share of income tax, the answer you get will depend on who you ask. But what cannot be argued is that, since 2010, the rich are now paying a much greater proportion of income tax, while basic rate taxpayers have seen their income tax contributions fall significantly from nearly half of all income tax receipts to just over a third.

For again we see that, if the government tries to take too much, then people act rationally in their own self-interest. Here, the trend in payments from the top 1 per cent of taxpayers is illustrative. When George Osborne cut the additional rate of tax for those earning above £150,000 from 50p to 45p in 2013-14, receipts from additional rate taxpayers went up by £8 billion in that financial year. A proportion of this was due to the deferral of income. Yet the increase in receipts was maintained in the following financial year, suggesting a lasting benefit to the exchequer from competitive tax rates. Despite the cut in rate from 50p to 45p, the yield has increased: top rate taxpayers have gone from paying under 23 per cent in 2010-11 of total income tax receipts to 28 per cent in 2014-15.

And remember that the highest earners are the geese that lay the golden eggs. Forcing them to pay more might be popular and therefore politically tempting, but it is economically crazy. Many geese will either fly off to more attractive countries or just stop laying the golden egg

Finally, Labour claims that its suggested tax on financial transactions would bring in £5.6 billion a year. That well-known Conservative, Sadiq Khan, the Labour mayor of London, has previously criticised these plans, arguing that the tax could lead to companies going to other parts of the world where this is no such tax. Financial institutions, which contributed £71.4bn, or 11.5 per cent of total government tax receipts in 2015-16, have also warned that market participants may take their business elsewhere instead of paying the levy, saying that the tax would stall market activity, slow economic growth and lead to higher costs being passed onto investors. Does Labour really not understand that its proposals would risk driving these businesses away?

Labour’s attempt to justify its tax proposals, Funding Britain’s Future, published alongside its manifesto, reads as if it has decided what it wants to do; and then to play with the calculations so that it appears affordable. The problem is that it simply ignores how companies and individuals would react to its proposed changes. In the real world, not a place which Labour appears keen to inhabit, that can only be dismissed as dangerously naive."

OliviaPopeRules · 17/05/2017 09:26

Surely we just need an alternative to children going hungry in school holidays, the elderly dying on hospital trollies and seeing mentally ill people homeless on the streets of our big cities?

I'm not going to argue with you about the wrongs and rights with how things are now.
But labour aren't really offering a solution. It is fantasy. So the question really is would you prefer things as they are now or an economy tanking so ultimately we won't be able to pay for any of these changes and things will get worse.

It's shit but you should be pissed off with labour for offering no viable alternative.

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Sionella · 17/05/2017 09:27

My DC goes to nursery for 2 mornings a week and it's £25,000 a year. We are in London and DC is under 3 though, not sure if that makes a difference?

Sionella · 17/05/2017 09:28

Oh Christ, my maths!!! It is NOT £25,000 a year. However, if DC went 5 days a week, it would be.

OliviaPopeRules · 17/05/2017 09:29

Sionella does the 30 hours of free childcare not kick in for you if both you and OH work?

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I17neednumbers · 17/05/2017 09:31

Two4one - that is very interesting. So the laffer curve does exist? Would be very interesting to see a response to that article.

The bank holidays. Is the intention to increase the total minimum holiday allowance? Otherwise aren't you just making people take holiday on bank hols rather than choosing their days off?

Crumbs1 · 17/05/2017 09:33

We're both high earners. My husband is a 'fat cat' but we have no inherited assets. We're very, very happy to pay a higher tax levy and welcome nationalisation of certain industries. We are more likely to leave country under Tories as we are so saddened by the demise of the public sector and chronic underfunding of our services. All these cuts and the national debt continues to rise far, far more rapidly than under Labour.
Unfortunately the slightly left of centre vote has been split widely between Labour, Lib Dems, Plaid and SNP (who will take Scottish labour vote). It will be a large Tory majority so the poor who fell for the spin and Strong and Stable rubbish will suffer hugely.

Sionella · 17/05/2017 09:33

Not at the moment no - I have it in my head that it only applies when they are 3/4?

DP is the SAHP, so only one of us working at the moment.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 17/05/2017 09:34

The bank holidays. Is the intention to increase the total minimum holiday allowance? Otherwise aren't you just making people take holiday on bank hols rather than choosing their days off?

^ this is how I think it will work too.

It won't be extra 4 holidays it will be taken from holiday allowances.

More and more companies are including BH in holiday allowances and so these will be absorbed in that. Actually giving people less choice not more.

Two4One2017 · 17/05/2017 09:34

Commentary via Ian Dunt's Politics.co.uk site re: the gap in Labour's Health spending plans. It comes from The Health Foundation (an independent health think tank)

www.politics.co.uk/news/2017/05/16/labour-nhs-spending-plans-will-leave-7bn-funding-gap

OliviaPopeRules · 17/05/2017 09:39

Well you won't get it unless you both work and earn under 100k.
The 21k I was referring to was the difference between 1 person earning 150k and two people earning 75k. People commented that if 2 people worked they would need childcare. I was saying in this circumstances I don't think childcare would cost 21k because they would be entitled to the 30 free hours.
So I'm not saying no one pay that in childcare I'm just saying in the comparison I was talking about I didn't think they would be for any sustained period of time.

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Sionella · 17/05/2017 09:40

No, we won't get it. See also tax credits - if we worked jointly to earn my salary we would, but because I earn it alone, we don't Confused

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