Why are wages so fucking bad in 2017? They're the same as the 80's/ 90's?

[BaydreamDeliever]

My mum moved to London in the 80's and worked for a high end shop. I've just had a look at the position they are advertising for at the moment, and it's a touch above min wage. My mum was able to afford to live on her wage back then, even though it wasn't big bucks, there is no way I could live on what they are offering today.

Wages are basically the same as years ago if you are in a lot of jobs. And the culture of 'internships' has further fucked everything. I see loads of these paying nothing or paying maybe £50 a day, demanding quite specific software skills. Entry level doesn't seem to mean entry level anymore.

I get that there always must be winners and losers in society as it's structured now, but seriously how can things churn on with workers being paid such shit money? If they do away with tax credits or housing benefit - what then? What will happen? I don't get it and I'm scared thinking of it. I'm educated, have a bit of experience in certain fields but not in any that pay reasonably. There must be millions like me in that same boat.

Owner of the company user(lotsofnumbers).

I think it is because the modern English are masochists, frankly. The listen to Theresa May promising to reduce money for schools, the NHS is a disaster, less benefits for the disabled, etc. etc. etc. and apparently she is going to have no problem in being reelected. Considering that the country was no richer many years ago, when university students didn't have to pay fees, there were good benefits for people who were unable to work and the NHS was admired world-wide, I cannot understand why anyone would vote for that shower again.

And even at the level of supply and demand, apparently unemployment is at historically low levels, so that argument doesn't work.

Erosion of the unions and deregulation so market rules supreme with scant state interference. Definitely not immigration. Neoliberalism policies adopted by Thatcher and Reagan was the start of why wages have reduced so much. Immigration is not the cause.

I think the wage issue in this country is far more complex than anyone realises.
"Wage inflation" is caused by technology & the surplus of labour. Less jobs = more people available= drop in wages.
The next problem is luck of education/ training. This country does not create many skilled workers below university level (and even some of these courses are questionable). I find the general education is poor. Many School leavers are unprepared for the workplace. Low education standards = Less knowledge = companies unprepared to pay decent wages. But will pay handsome sums for well educated, experienced people at top level. (They are hard to come by!)
Than comes the issue of inflation. The increase in the world population coupled with the rise of former "3rd World" countries put a huge pressure on raw materials. More people wanting the same things = price increases.
A problem specific to Britain (but not exclusive) is availability of land to build housing for the ever increasing population. Which resulted in a steep rise of housing (rent or buy).

The next governments would have to address these core issues and turn the ship somehow around with the help of brexit. And than be able to predict and combat whatever is communing our way from new, exiting economies in order to hold on to our dwindling wealth.
Complex, serious and interesting stuff.

Employers used to train on the job. Back in the 1960s DH was in an apprenticeship at Marconis DH said he learnt more there than at school.

Why dont employers train on the job anymore.

Purely anecdotal... As a student back in 1995, I used to work for a high street chain. My hourly rate was £3.64 and the full timer earned £7800 per year. It must be more now due to introduction of minimum wage

The pay in my current industry (law) has increased significantly in the last 20 years. It's a very unfair world.

Great posts user149 and Ylvamoon

Yeah I was passed off earning £12,000 a year in 2004. I'd be lucky to get that now where I live.

The government needs to legislate on wages. End of.

Immigration really has very little to do with it. It's a worldwide problem. I work in a sector which really hasn't been affected by immigration but my wages haven't increased in 10 years. Ridiculous house prices exacerbate the situation.

My wage in London back in the 80's was £5000 a year plus £3000 weighting. I would imagine for the same role I was doing it would no be a minimum of £20,000 in London. I didn't earn enough to buy a house on that even then.

In my current role, the salary was £11,500 in 91. It would be no less than £30,000 now mostly more.

The financial crisis in not over. There are fundamental problems that have never been addressed.

Also, and this is a terrifying concern, China may be hollowed out. If China crashes it will be awful.

The collapse of communism, and the end of the Cold War.

During the second half of the 20th century, workers had to be bribed, with higher wages, to support capitalism. Now that communism is no longer seen as a viable political solution, there is no need to pay higher wages.

I'll tell you what I think it is.

Companies used to pay their staff. Now they pay their shareholders and suck every penny they possibly can away from the workers.

Ylvamoon education standards are far higher than they were. Requirements for skills have been massively inflated as wages have stagnated or decreased, we have no patience for people learning and training on jobs anymore.

Slightly off-topic, but Atenco "Considering that the country was no richer many years ago, when university students didn't have to pay fees, there were good benefits for people who were unable to work and the NHS was admired world-wide, I cannot understand why anyone would vote for that shower again."

Couldn't agree more. All these privatizations, all these cuts, where's all the money gone? How come public services and industries could be paid for back then when there was so much less wealth than now? Public debt = private profit.

The reason pay has increased for those at the top end is because they make money for businesses whereas those in lower grade jobs are performing tasks that need doing but don't directly contribute to the performance as a whole. That's why PA to director gets paid the same as x years ago but director will earn significantly more.

Why are wages bad?

Partly (a large part) ecause people keep on voting Tory.

peppatax The special snowflake "wealth creators" argument is so much rubbish. Consider this: in any given industry how long will it actually last without its frontline staff, either producing the goods or serving the customers? No time at all. What about without its mid-level admin staff? Maybe a week or two, or until next payday. Without its top-level managers? Actually it could last quite some time.

Immigration - means cheap labour as others have said. No-one has to pay anything other than min wage for many jobs. It also stops progressions and in-house training as no need to promote or give annual increments. Just take on more people.

Technology, collapse of unions as others said, cheap imports.Tax credits too - they allow companies to pay less as do "internships"

Shoppers now use the internet and won't pay for good service or for decent companies. Go to Primark and get three tops for a pound! How do you think they can do that and pay decent wages????

I was earning over £30k in 1997. The same job now pays £25k - and they are inundated with applicants.

FloweringDeranger that's not my point - the point is there is a huge pool of people available to serve customers or make goods but a more limited pool of people who can run a business, negotiate contracts with other organisations, grow companies year on year with changes to legislation, tax and the economy. So if a particular section of the workforce were to disappear then your point stands but it wouldn't be there at all if it were not for wealth creators.

You're also thinking consumer oriented business rather than professional services. Whether people like it or not, half the corporation tax receipts in this country come from the financial services industry.

HelenaDove
Why dont employers train on the job anymore.

Because they don't have to. They can "buy in" the skills they need cheaply and get rid of people easily when they no longer need them.

Also employees are less loyal - you can spend a fortune on training - and they leave.

And "clients"/customers less fussy. My local library employs six front desk staff only one of whom is local and a native speaker. They know nothing about books or English literature or history - but they can work a machine and look things up on a database. And they are cheap. They will work for minimum wage because they can learn English and get a job which allows them to claim tax credits so life is possible.

"Clients" complain but who cares? So "clients" just give up and think themselves lucky that at least they still have a library.

Dp works in construction.

20 years ago he was getting £5 m2 of a big part of his job. Now he gets £3 m2. And it's not just immigration as the building industry has always relied on immigration.

Now the building industry has a shortage of skills. Some of the stuff dp and his mates can do isn't taught anymore. No one will take apprentices on because of the cost of insurance and the paperwork.

In our industry we need more money cominh down to the front line or it will collapse.

Companies used to pay their staff. Now they pay their shareholders and suck every penny they possibly can away from the workers.

Agree. This is a trend that has been going on for decades but it is reaching breaking point.

Budget cuts are another factor. I work in the public sector, in an area that requires professional qualifications and is not affected by immigration. I didn't have a pay rise for 10 years - the 5 years I had a pay rise it was always below inflation and below wage inflation at a national level. And we are heavily union-protected.

In the meantime, house prices have gone up x4. Neighbours on my road bought 20 years ago on the back of 1 person working on a job that didn't require qualifications but paid decent £. People like that wouldn't be able to buy anything now, let alone our relatively comfortable houses in a leafy suburb.

No idea what the solution is but it's going to get a heck of a lot worse during Brexit for most of us.

I disagree, at least to some extent. If you can deal with customers you can certainly negotiate contracts. Much of the rest is a case of training, support and confidence. But all contribute to the success of the whole, and the massively inflated wage increases for the highest while the lowest have no basis in the worth of their tasks. Over-supply of people in a technological age is the issue.

It's true I wasn't thinking of the finance industry though which seems to be in an entirely-fabricated world of its own and I am indeed one of those who don't like it (the professional services I know of do hold up to my model)!

Go to Primark and get three tops for a pound! How do you think they can do that and pay decent wages????

The clothes cost next to nothing due to pretty much slave labour in the third world. There is no way most people in the UK could afford to buy clothes made by people in the UK at UK wages. A whole other thread though.

I only realised quite recently that this has come alongside the reduction of the unions. Go back a few decades and far more people were in a union, it seems like very few are now and those who are aren't getting the same protection because unions work when they represent greater number of people.

In some ways the unions brought it on themselves, the stories of nepotism, bullying and corruption among shop stewards within them that I have heard my dad and others of his generation discuss are enough to put people off but I think there is more to it than that too.