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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Calling pedants, teachers, wordsmiths and class warriors.

469 replies

shylock · 14/03/2007 08:22

I have a question.

OP posts:
Anna8888 · 14/03/2007 10:58

I think it's tragic that students in English Literature who want to be teachers don't aspire to speak beautiful English. What is wrong with our society that we don't value our amazing language more?

NotQuiteCockney · 14/03/2007 11:00

But dialects can be beautiful! Lots of pop music is written in dialect, and is still beautiful.

Anna8888 · 14/03/2007 11:01

Some dialects can be attractive... neither of the examples given by Shylock were anything other than horrendously ugly.

snowleopard · 14/03/2007 11:04

But finding dialects ugly is surely a matter of opinion? And you defenitely can't start saying some are better than others - well you can, but not in a university teacher role - unless you want to be kicked out for discrimination...

snowleopard · 14/03/2007 11:04

Aaaarrrghhh definitely - I don't belong on this thread

pointydog · 14/03/2007 11:04

Do they write correctly? If so, I wouldn't be bothered about how they spoke.

Anna8888 · 14/03/2007 11:06

snowleopard - personally no, I don't think it's a matter of opinion. But perhaps you think that, say, John Prescott, is very attractive and Jude Law ugly?

Anna8888 · 14/03/2007 11:08

I don't have any problem saying that one way of speaking English is better than another. I am not politically correct (thank goodness).

Molesworth · 14/03/2007 11:10

Anna, you're certainly not correct - politically or otherwise

Anna8888 · 14/03/2007 11:10

molesworth - so you don't believe in absolute truths?

Molesworth · 14/03/2007 11:12

The idea that the "ugliness" of an Essex or London accent is an "absolute truth" is laughable

kittywaitsfornumber6 · 14/03/2007 11:12

I didn't realise a 2;1 was average. In my day that was good. Have standards dropped that much ?

NotQuiteCockney · 14/03/2007 11:13

Well, obviously non-posh accents are objectively absolutely uglier than posh ones. Everyone knows that.

snowleopard · 14/03/2007 11:13

You know what, I would prefer Prezza to Jude - honestly. See, it's all a matter of opinion. IMO Prezza is extraordinarily ugly and a tosser, but I hate pretty-boy looks even more, and Jude is the epitome of vacuous pretty-boy - I like rough men.

Hmm this thread could wander off-track...

Anna8888 · 14/03/2007 11:13

I never said that, or anything remotely like that.

Molesworth · 14/03/2007 11:14

Why the question about absolute truths then, if it wasn't relevant to this discussion?

Ellbell · 14/03/2007 11:15

I have only skimmed the thread, sorry. (Am just taking a break from marking my students' essays, so can't stay long... but you know I'm a sucker for threads with the word 'pedant' in the title!)

I feel that (1) is, as others have said, primarily a pronunciation issue, so it wouldn't bother me unduly.

The inarticulate way in which the sentence is expressed might bother me a bit, and in particular the 'somefing to do with history', just because I'd hope that final-year students would be able to come up with something a bit more specific than that.

At first glance (2) would bother me more, because it is fundamentally ungrammatical. In writing, I'd say that it is downright 'wrong'. However, I completely take the point that it is an acceptable dialect form. It wouldn't make me cringe if I heard it, say, on Eastenders or in the street. In speech, choosing to use this form or not would be a question of register. When I first read this, I did feel that it is probably not an appropriate register for a seminar at university. If the student was using it in a presentation, for example, I'd probably feel that s/he should try to adopt a more 'formal' register. However, if it's part of a relaxed discussion then I wouldn't have a problem with the student speaking her/his 'normal' language.

I'd hope that, if s/he does on to be a teacher, s/he would try to use standard English (not RP, but an English which conforms to the grammatical rules normally expected in writing) in the classroom, as a way of setting an example to her/his students. If these students are likely to get Firsts, they are clearly able to write coherently and to distinguish between registers. (At least, I should bloody well hope so!)

Anna8888 · 14/03/2007 11:15

snowleopard - so you would agree that John Prescott is uglier than Jude Law? And of course you are quite right to prefer ugliness to beauty if you so wish.

shylock · 14/03/2007 11:16

University is Russell Group and scores highly for English on all league tables/assessments.

OP posts:
Pruni · 14/03/2007 11:17

Message withdrawn

snowleopard · 14/03/2007 11:18

Depends, I'm using ugly in a kind of generally accepted sense within the parameters of our society, so yes, but that doesn't mean I think ugliness and beauty are absolute truths - of people or accents. They are prime example of things that are defined by cultural norms, not empirical measurements (though scientists do try, but have you noticed that whenever they come up with some scientifically defined "ideal face" it always looks very dull and blank, not beautiful at all?)

God I'm really rabmling now and have to fit a bit of work in (in between by bedroom bouts with Prezza obviously)

AitchYouBerk · 14/03/2007 11:19

no wonder, shylock, if it goes around handing out 2:1s to people who can't speak English properly...

Anna8888 · 14/03/2007 11:19

snowleopard - yes you are rambling, come back later when you've sorted out your thoughts and I'll discount this post...

Molesworth · 14/03/2007 11:20

aitch

Anna8888 · 14/03/2007 11:21

though you are wrong about beauty being subjective, there is plenty of scientific evidence that we are born with an innate sense of beauty but that it gets distorted by our ugly surroundings and political correctness