To spoil my ballot?

[OvariesBeforeBrovaries]

I know IABU to talk about politics when there's a bajillion other threads on it already. I await your throwing

I've never even contemplated doing this before, in my head I've equated it to being the same as not voting at all. I want to vote, I want to take part in this democracy, but I'm so frustrated and disenfranchised. I don't want any of them to win. I don't want party politics and adults acting like kids slagging off other parties and other people in the newspapers and on TV because they have opposing politics. I want a group of people who have been elected for their own personal politics and views to sit down together and figure something out, rather than three or four groups of people waving their willies about and refusing to budge on issues because "that's what the party does" and just coming out with random slogans that mean nothing instead of actually answering questions.

I can't vote Conservatives. Hell would freeze over before I did.

I won't vote for Labour because while I think Corbyn is neither the demon nor the saint he's been made out to be, regardless of him the party is in a complete state and until one side or the other decides fuck it, this isn't working and does something to lead to a more united party, I can't vote for them.

My political views align with the Lib Dems, I think, and I like that Farron seems able to separate his religious views and his politics (unlike May who got all pissy about "Easter" but sees nothing wrong with food banks and disabled people dying), but I went to uni in 2012 so voting Lib Dem feels like heresy as one of the first years to be hit with £9k a year tuition fees (that said, I'm in Wales so the government fee grant took care of the extra, which may be why I'm not so militant about it).

Plaid, Greens etc feel like a wasted vote.

UKIP is a joke really.

What I'm getting at is, is spoiling your ballot the same as not voting at all? I don't want to write an essay on there because I know it won't get read, just to scribble all over it or draw in my own "none of the above" box or something. Last GE I saw people really criticising those who spoiled their ballots and I agreed, but now I feel so disenfranchised by it all. Do you vote for the lesser of all evils, just so that at least you've voted?

MissShittyBennet
Why? Because you've wussed out. Refused to locate and don any big girl pants. You've actively chosen not to take the best way you had to influence the process.

I have chosen the best way I had to influence the process, you just don't agree with it, and you have decided to regress and name call and accuse me of not being an adult.

The stuff about calling shots and appeasement is a bit silly- it must be clear to you that I'm not suggesting your right to free speech gets formally suspended if you go and draw a penis or a smiley face on your ballot paper? Obviously not.

But you are adamant that I should vote in away that you find acceptable. That I should give credence to policies that I don't support and a in some cases people that are supported by their parties even though they have (shall we say) less than pristine backgrounds.

It just means that if you thought they were all the same to the extent that you couldn't bring yourself to choose one above the others, you had a mechanism to try and stop the party who won and you didn't use it. Thus, doing so evidently wasn't important enough to you for you to manage to hold your nose and do anything meaningful about it. Only to whinge later.

You make the assumption that I am not active in politics because of the way that I vote and you would be wrong you are also still saying that I should use my way in a way that you find acceptable. .

So with that in mind, sure, spoil your ballot and complain if you must, we live in a free country after all... If you or anyone else who didn't bother making a meaningful contribution do it in my hearing (because you certainly didn't) then I'm going to have plenty to say to you about it.

Again it is in your mind and you will try to take others to task for not doing something in away that you approve of. By all means have plenty to say, but at least back it up with knowledge about the person that you are trying to pull apart.

From your last point.

Doesn't it worry that we have less than a 50% turn out?
Doesn't it bother you that you are supporting a system that is happy to govern a country with where less than a third of voters (not the number of eligible voters) have put them in power?

Totally agree with the posters who suggest looking at the individual candidates rather than parties.

thanks miss. Very interesting.

Id never heard of "spoiling the ballot" as a significant form of protest till I joined
MN. Unless Labour come up with some particularly good stuff before the election, for me, it's don't vote or spoil the ballot.

I still feel that spoiling the paper is pointless - not sure what to do.

I'm active in local politics and campaign generally. I see the argument that if loads of people spoil their paper, there's a signal that another new party could make headway but surely a low turnout tells the same story.

When SNP holds sway in your area looking for at individual candidates is rendered futile.

Nationalism is fairly clear cut and the personnel are well regimented.

Goldfishjane

Low turn out is always sold as voter apathy, or happy with what is going on.

I would say be grateful you have a full choice of who to vote for. I live in the speakers constituency, it is agreed that none of the main parties put a candidate up against the speaker. This means no-one in my area has had a chance to vote for the 3 main parties since 2010. It is totally undemocratic and I, like most people here, are fed up with it. There is campaign to try and change the law so that the speaker does not have a constituency but it hasn't got very far. Spoiling your vote is the same as not voting, I would like to have a vote that counted.

CheeseCakeSunflowers
Spoiling your vote is the same as not voting

Spoilt votes are counted so its not the same.

What's the point in spoiling your ballot? Why waste your time?

One extra point about binning the ballots - If the count is close the potential spoiled ballots are scrutinised by the candidates.

I think it's a tiny improvement on not going to vote as that can be dismissed as apathy. Basically I value my vote and I personally always look at turnout and know others who do to.

The ( to my mind and I know others disagree) disgusting Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell are not going to stop me having a trip out on June 8th. Pointless as it may be in the greater scheme of things!

In answer to your points boney:

• You haven't chosen the best way you had to influence the process. You just haven't. I understand arguments about feeling morally unable to vote for any particular candidate etc, but the fact remains that you would have more influence casting a valid vote than not. Non-participation does nothing.

If you said you accepted that but still couldn't bring yourself to do it, that would be a fair point.

• I'm not adamant that you should vote in a way that I find acceptable. That's just completely incorrect. There is nothing in any of my posts that could possibly give that impression, not least because the first thing I wrote on this thread is that OP should do as she wishes with her ballot paper.

What I have a problem with is people failing to cast a valid vote and then complaining afterwards, or pretending that they have actually done anything meaningful. This is something extremely different to saying people shouldn't spoil a ballot at all.

• I'm not under any assumption that you're not active in politics because of your decision to spoil a ballot. That is, in actual fact, an assumption on your part.

What is not, however, an assumption, is that you had a mechanism to influence the result that you didn't use. That's a fact. If you did think using it was important enough to outweigh your other objections, you'd have done so. And while you are entitled to do as you did, and would also be entitled to stay at home entirely, others then get to have an opinion on it. Just as they could if you had chosen to vote for a particular party. Like it or not.

• Yes the low turnout worries me. I just don't delude myself that spoiling a ballot is doing anything about it, or amounts to any kind of meaningful opposition to the current system.

Who has said they are going to complain about the result afterwards Bennet?

I have missed that issue being raised.

I spoilt my paper in our council election. My choice was Tory ( a local walker who has already got form for insider dealing: he still won), UKIP, and independents who think UKIP are soft. I could not vote for any of them. It's so blue round my way you could stand a pile of dog crap with a blue badge and it would win. The fpp system screws us over so badly Labour dont even.stand candidates. The lib dems barely bothered last election. I can't vote with my conscience or for the best candidate because there aren't any.

I did think about standing and even approached Labour but they just don't fight this area. And I'm a bit old and knackered now.

I'm more interested in why you think people would have to say they're planning to complain for that to be a relevant issue to raise belle? I mean, such a statement wouldn't be worth much anyway, since people change their minds, but you presumably think it's of some importance else you wouldn't raise it?

It's just as I previously said I don't know people who go about after an election boasting of their contribution to democracy. I answered the ops question straight and don't get your angst tbh.

It's a valid option.

I don't like the belittling of an action that I was brought up to believe a valid option. That is why I made the error of engaging with you!

MissShittyBennet

Why the name calling?

I am not deluded about anything.

But your argument is that "it just haven't" isn't exactly putting you r point across in any other way than 'I'm right and you are wrong'

I'm not adamant that you should vote in a way that I find acceptable.

If you truly believe this then why suggest that i stay at home entirely, others then get to have an opinion on it. One contradicts the other.

Also Who are these people that I am stopping voting?
Why should I hold their opinions in such adoration that it stops me from voting?

What is not, however, an assumption, is that you had a mechanism to influence the result that you didn't use. That's a fact. If you did think using it was important enough to outweigh your other objections, you'd have done so.

But I did use it, But I used it,, I just didn't use it in a way that you approve of.

Apologies for the weird last line, I have changed batteries in the keyboard

I don't like the belittling of an action that I was brought up to believe a valid option. That is why I made the error of engaging with you!

Well I'm sure I'll cope without any more of your thinly veiled personal attacks...

I object to the insinuation that I veil my thoughts..

How rude! Lol

And boney I am saddened if you think I've personally attacked you (genuinely) but telling you that you're deluding yourself isn't that.

Nor have I suggested that you stay at home entirely. If you think that is true, show me where I did it. You won't be able to, because I haven't. I am also bemused at your question about these people you are stopping from voting. Again, there isn't a single thing in any of my posts that could give you that idea.

As for the rest, if you don't make a choice to vote for anyone then of course you're having no impact on the result. It's only votes that are cast for a particular candidate that do this, because that's how our system works. This isn't anything even close to a matter of opinion. There just isn't a mechanism for anything else to have any impact at all.

If you were saying you abstained while understanding this but doing it on principle, that would be a reasonable point. Or just that, while accepting the irrefutable reality, you still felt it should be different. But otherwise, if you think your spoiled ballot is having any meaningful impact at all, what exactly do you think that is?

Oh I don't think you were veiling your thoughts belle. Not in the slightest.

"And while you are entitled to do as you did, and would also be entitled to stay at home entirely, others then get to have an opinion on it. Just as they could if you had chosen to vote for a particular party. Like it or not."

This is what you posted.

If you are not suggesting that I should stay at home so that others (really not sure by what you mean by this, it can be taken in so many ways) can make their opinions heard.

Your last post makes the most sense, I vote the way that I do because I am not able to abstain in any other meaningful way.
Not voting = apathy
Protest vote = supporting policies that I do not support
Spoiling my ballot = the system is rubbish, the policies are rubbish.

I don't think that it will change anything, but then nothing will change until politicians and their parties are held to account for breaking their promises (and breaking the law) and the vast majority of people actually start voting.

So we have at least found some common ground. (i think)

Like I say my mistake. Sorry.

On the subject of spoilt ballots - they are classed as spoilt for a variety of reasons, not just because someone has written a comment on them regarding the candidates/ party. It can be they've voted for more candidates than they're allowed to, they've not marked the paper at all etc. The urban myth that if you put a tick in a box, rather than a cross invalidates your vote is untrue, as it's classed as the intention to vote. Where I counted, there was a surprisingly high turn out for local elections and the number of spoilt votes was very small. There was a few with comments but the majority of them were classed as spoilt due to being completed incorrectly. They are still counted in the overall total as the number of voting papers issued at the poll station must agree with the number of votes counted, and we have to sit there until they do!