To think that people can only improve their lot if the state creates the right conditions?

[malificent7]

Ive been reading a few political labour v tory threads. Some posters have said that they will vote tory as more people should be working harder in order to improve their lot and stop relying on the state?

Call me a gnarly old socialist but aibu to think that the state has a duty to create the conditions where people can live comfortably?
Eg: a decent minimum wage.
An end to austerity and job cuts so that there are more jobs available.
Affordable housing
A decent welfare system where the needy are supoorted so that we dont create a ghettoised society and keep cash circulating for rich and poor.
Where the poor are protected from exploitation by the rich.
Where people are encouraged to return to work by decent goverment schemes.
Of course people should help themselves if they can but they can only do do if the state helps them. People who cant hell themselves should be looked after by state.

I agree OP, at the very least there should be the assumption that people who are out of work actually DO want to work. That it's not just that they can't be bothered but that for some reason they can't.

It may be where they live, it may be that they need help reading/writing, it may be that they are disabled in some way - it may even be that they have never had the pleasure of doing a job they enjoy and the rewards in self-esteem (as well as income) that that can bring.

But the assumption that people out of work are feckless and need bullying into finding work is appalling.

And I'm not talking about high-paid jobs bringing self-worth. Low paid/low status roles can still be fulfilling as long as there is a safety net and support from society for when things get tough - I'm thinking here of things like people on low income who have to go into debt to get a washing machine if theirs breaks down. Simple things like an unexpected repair bill can have a devastating effect on families.

investment in the whole UK instead of just the SE. We have a single track rail service with one train per hour into Sheffield and Huddersfield, that wouldn't be tolerated in London who have spent billions on cross rail. Investment in jobs and infrastructure in the north please to create better opportunities for social mobility

YABU. You need drive. Unfortunately for many being able to support themselves on benefits kills that drive.

I think work ethic does play a big part in it.

I am British, when I was living in the UK life was a struggle, then I was made redundant, at that point I realized there was no help for us, I felt that my family was on its own and my it's survival was my responsibility. It was the start of a unrecoverable slide to bankruptcy. It only started to improve when DH started his own freelance business. (Big gamble at the time!)

Since then I have always wanted less government involvement in my life, because I didn't see a reason for it, they don't care. It was one of the reasons we decided to move to the USA. Since moving we have been able to thrive. I started a business here, It has been hard work and will continue to be hard work. But I would rather work to improve our lives.

I feel that DH and I are responsible for our lives and the lives of our kids.

If we don't invest in giving everyone a decent start in life and decent standard of life as children we can't expect them to suddenly spontaneously become productive citizens off their own backs the minute they turn 18

^
This

The current situation with regards to a lack of school funding while the government is embarking on spending a fortune on Free schools and Grammar schools springs to mind. How about investing in the schools we've got rather than allocating funds to pet projects. It's all very well for Theresa May to champion new Grammars but if the primary schools are struggling with funding how the hell will the disadvantaged brightest get the primary education required to pass the selection process.

Yanbu 100%

I don't think anyone is saying work ethic and drive have nothing to do with it. It's just we can't all work ethic ourselves out of the effects of property speculation and artificial bubble inflation.

user1492679224 Fri 28-Apr-17 08:49:59
"There are few jobs where I live and now Nestle are closing their factory! My child has a 12 hour contract and is not allowed to take a second job because they need to be available to work at the drop of a hat so is not able to improve their income."

THIS is exactly what i meant when ive said on other threads that employers like this want ppl to be "on call" without paying them for being on call. This shit needs to stop.

I believe exporting all the industrial jobs is a big problem. People would be maintaining and operating as well as innovating future machines (robots). Those were jobs with good pay and benefits. Those employees had the means to get on stay on the property ladder.
My husband on the other hand says overpopulation is at the core of all the problems.

Out2pasture

I think you husband is right too. Overpopulation is at the core of all the issues we face today.

Numerous studies show that the more people have, the more likely they are to be able to pull themselves out of poverty. With what's going on at the moment, with the changeover to UC, things are about to get a lot worse for a lot of people.

I'm just about to finish a degree, and my dissertation is about the challenges faced by single mothers living a rural location in terms of finding employment. It's quite personal to me.

In no particular order, my personal barriers to employment are:

1. Lack of jobs available locally. Nearest large town is a 45 minute drive and there's not even much on offer there.

1. Lack of childcare. There's one breakfast/after school club in my small town and that's it.

1. My mental health. I have long term depression and post traumatic stress disorder, and whether I am capable of working is something I can't predict from day to day.

1. I have a disabled child who needs extra care and often can't attend school.

So I'm sure the more right wing types would just tell me to move. But my support network is here, which as a lone parent 100% of the time is invaluable. My children have been through a lot and moved several times, we are now settled in a HA house in a nice area, and they are doing well at very good schools. It would be disastrous to move them, particularly my eldest daughter with ASD.

I've been doing self employed work for 12 years but good old UC will put an end to that too. I am a resourceful person but I just don't know what my options are when that happens.

So it's not as clear cut as 'must try harder'. Believe me, no one wants to be in this situation less than myself.

YANBU.

I work with vulnerable people who are homeless, inadequately housed, or at risk of becoming homeless. Things have become progressively worse for my clients over the last few years, and I despair for the future.

Levels of poverty and need are fast approaching Dickensian standards.

yanbu

Suppose you had ten dogs and three bones. You throw the bones and three of the best dogs catch them.

You repeat the exercise, but beforehand, train the other dogs up to have fantastic bone catching skills and a foster a superlative work and learning ethic. Still, seven dogs are going to be boneless... the problem is fundamentally structural.

Having said that, I do think that a lot of people don't help themselves and sabotage themselves further than the structural barriers they face, eg poor prioritisation of their household budget. This stuff should be taught in schools. I also get some of the right wing arguments that generous conditional benefits promotes a "clientification" of the welfare classes. I guess what I'd like to see, rather than ever increasing benefits & tax credits & housing benefit that end up lining the private sector, is generous non monetary universal public services, such as health, education, housing, justice, arts, participatory sports etc. Also for the govt to build the economy in such a way that slashes the basic cost of living & housing. It is the humongous cost of basic living expenses that pushes so many into poverty and shitty living conditions.

Buying a house should be asperational, but in the sense of taking a few flights of stairs at work, NOT like climbing the north face of Everest which is the reality for people in ordinary jobs in the SE.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-skewered-live-tv-refusing-10326568

to accept that nurses are using food banks.

Also for the govt to build the economy in such a way that slashes the basic cost of living & housing. It is the humongous cost of basic living expenses that pushes so many into poverty and shitty living conditions

^^ this

And people being expected to flatshare with strangers.

YANBU

Those policies on the first post are Tory policies too.

WildB, could the chidlren's father look after them some of the time or pay more?