To strongly disapprove of people who have affairs?

[ncrant]

NC for this.

Really, AIBU? Is this more acceptable/expected now?

I have several friends who are having/had affairs with married people. They tell me their trouble. They're good people, but I can't be sympathetic, and mostly I don't know what to say. Inside, I am thinking (angrily) - just DON'T do this, it is wrong. Married people aren't available, full stop. If someones still in a relationship, just leave well alone. I recognise that life is very very complicated (and both parties are responsible), but I can't feel any less black and white about this.

So just interested in views. AIBU to completely judge? Should I try and understand more?

I tried to find it but couldn't, but there is a thread in Relationships where people who have been cheated on talk about the incredible shock and pain that resulted when they found out, and the struggles they've had to trust again even long after the relationship ended.
The pain of affairs isn't because of the sex, it's because you find out that the one person you trusted most has deliberately deceived and lied to you, and usually gaslighted you to keep you from finding out.
A very few affairs might be because one person finally snaps in an awful marriage and finds a way out, but the vast majority are because the cheater wants sex with someone else and decides they'll take the risk of deeply hurting another person to get it.
I know I'm going to get flamed for this but I judge like hell. It's a shitty and selfish thing to do. If your marriage is that bad, make the effort to fix it or leave.

the alternative is that they have absolutely no control over their own behaviour and impulses....and at the point where it goes from a kiss that just happened without planning, to meeting up again and again for more, its just as bad as a plan to have an affair, IMO. If someone can't resist sex with someone just because they find them appealing, can they be trusted not to do other inappropriate things on impulse? Take something they like from a shop? Hit someone if they're annoying them, even a child?

In my experience, the feelings and circumstances surrounding sex and love are deep and complex, and really not comparable to impulses to abuse children or commit crimes.

Not that abusers or criminals can't be cheaters, of course. But I really cannot go from saying an unhappy person who succumbs to sex they shouldn't have is necessarily going to beat a child. The friend I discussed earlier is never going to hurt a child or steal from a shop.

No, sorry.

You can't always 'just leave' violent, controlling partners who have all the money, power and legal options and you have nothing. Leaving them could get you killed. LTB is not easy.

Or the ones who aren't 'bad enough' but will still 'take your kids', refuse to pay, leave you destitute, try and make you homeless, turn the kids against you and spend their time making your life a misery.

These partners make leaving a bit of a ballache.

I figure if they want to play hardball by showing how shit divorce will be, then fuck 'em. Do what you like. It's your body after all.

Who says, for example, a man can decide he won't have sex with you anymore, but you can't with anyone else. He doesn't have that right. It's your body. He calls you fat, mumsy and boring. He hates you. So much he won't let you leave safely.

I gave up those romantic notions years ago. Some women wake up to a man who hates them. I don't begrudge her seeking a little love elsewhere.

*We're all human, we all fuck up sometimes, to varying degrees.

And I don't think all cheating is equal. It's not all black and white and there are so many shades of grey in some situations.*

My stance too.

And abusive relationships and wanting out. Very grey area.

I wish I lived in the black and white world a lot of the posters here do.

Actually no I don't- the varying shades of grey I have experienced in my 40 odd years have made me the well rounded, empathic, non judgemental person I am.

If you are truly happy in your mariage then you would never stray....... It's that simple. It's wrong in my eyes but people who do are obviously not in love or happy withing there own relationship

Again many thanks - you've all responded in incredibly thoughtful and diverse ways and given me exactly what I needed - different perspectives and food for thought. I was struggling with my own feelings on this, and I'm very grateful to all. I think the thing that's struck home most is the statement that people who have affairs aren't happy. I don't think this excuses them making others unhappy, but I completely understand that being very unhappy makes you do things that you would not do otherwise. So I suppose in a way it does explain things a little to me, although as I say, I can't see it as an excuse. But very many thanks to all for taking the time to reply.

If a friend told me they were cheating or that they were the OW/OM, I'd tell them what a cunt they're being. I wouldn't break off the friendship but I'd think less of them and wouldn't hesitate to call them out on it.

And if I knew their partner well too, I'd tell them.

YANBU. I was cheated on in my first marriage. He was having unprotected sex with someone else whilst we were ttc in what I believed to be a monogomous relationship. He lied to the point where I thought I was going insane and spent money we didn't have on conducting his affair. He also chose to rewrite the history of our relationship when it all came out.

I believe much of the behaviour that goes alongside cheating to be abusive, particularly the gaslighting and jeopardising the sexual health of an unsuspecting party.

Thinking about it further - I did know a woman who would delibrately target married men. I realised after a while that for all her big, brassy confidence, she was actually very insecure.

It was easier for her to be brave enough to target a married man, because if he turned her down, that was because he was committed to his DW, whereas if a single man turned her down, he was rejecting her. She'd chase and flirt with married men, usually a bit older, usually not the sort of men physically she'd have given a second glance to if they were single - but it was an ego boost and and game to 'win' someone.

I stopped classing her as a friend (we lost touch once I changed jobs) as I realised she genuinely didn't care who got hurt as long as she was happy - she didn't really care about any of the men she dated.

And yes, she was another one labelled a 'bike' at work - mainly because it almost became a rite of passage when a new man entered the company over a certain pay grade that she'd start flirting...

^^ Definitely cheating and abusive behaviours go hand in hand. Basically they're lying all the time, prepared to blame anyone rather than be responsible for their actions.

The funny thing about this thread is the amount of posters assuming that cheaters are in unhappy relationships. I'd say 80% are in totally happy relationships and they cheat because they enjoy cheating but they also tend to enjoy the other partner too. They enjoy the extra thrill, the kick from it and also those in long term affairs tend to enjoy the dynamic of two different lives. A majority are people who would happily lead poly lifestyles if it was more accepted by society.

I do judge yes.

Because it tells me they a) have impulse control issues b) think only of themselves and c) are deceitful.

None good traits.

However, it depends on the level doesn't it?

One drunken kiss? Yes I'd be disappointed for them but I wouldn't never see them the same again.

Sex and long term cheating? No, I think I couldn't see them the same way again.

Maybe if they actually told their partner straight away, I'd keep some respect as it obviously wouldn't be easy - but I think to continue to deceive takes a certain type of person.

ncrant, I don't judge because I don't know what is going on in their lives, why it happened.

DoesHeWantToOrNot explains it well I think, too easy to jump to conclusions.

It's not something I would do a I love my husband very much but other people's relationship are none of my business. I certainly don't judge as nobody can understand what goes on in another partnership. Walk a mile in someone elses shoes first.Certainly wouldn't change my friendship s.

I'd say 80% are in totally happy relationships and they cheat because they enjoy cheating but they also tend to enjoy the other partner too.

That's not been my experience, personally. I do think a lot of them have a sort of honeymoon period where they enjoy getting the 'best of both worlds' but that's not the same as being happy and satisfied in life.

I think the thing that's struck home most is the statement that people who have affairs aren't happy.

This is pretty much the only constant I've seen among people who I knew to be having affairs. And some of them do seem to have golden lives on the surface, or even be rather smug and blasé and unbearable. But they're not happy. Plenty of people with apparently blessed lives are in fact depressed.

I don't think this excuses them making others unhappy, but I completely understand that being very unhappy makes you do things that you would not do otherwise.

I certainly agree that being unhappy doesn't give you the right to hurt other people. Some people who I've known to have affairs don't seem to be capable of being happy, of being satisfied with anything. I'm certainly not saying that all cheaters are tragic heroes. Some are awful people and I wouldn't expect anything better from them. But yes, they do all seem to be unhappy. Pretty much all OW I've known have been very very unhappy. A couple did a very good job of pretending they weren't, but they were.

If leaving is so easy, why is the Relationships board brimming with women who can't seem to leave the most disrespectful, toxic and abusive of men?

The friend I referred to earlier was the person who first challenged my own very black and white 'cheaters are always scumbags and bad people' perception. She is anything but a scumbag and a bad person. But she was utterly financially dependent on her husband, to a great extent she was emotionally dependent on him (or at least the idea of him) and he just...didn't give a shit.

Oh, he tore her a new one when he found out about the affair, she had broken her vows, she was a bitch, etc etc. And what about his own vows? I witnessed him promising to have and to hold, to love and to cherish, and then fucking off every chance he got, thinking he'd paid her so she should put up and shut up.

I started to realise that I couldn't actually understand what he was so angry about. He hadn't shown her any affection in months, possibly years, and he had no interest in working with her on it. He might as well be upset because his cook or chambermaid had slept with someone, for all the emotional betrayal there was going on there. As I said before, plenty of people stay faithful not because they love their partners but because the rules say 'don't cheat'. Means nothing, really.

Because it tells me they a) have impulse control issues b) think only of themselves and c) are deceitful.

Deceitful? Pah, some of them are so fucking stupid about it I can only imagine they wanted to get caught. I worked with a couple who were having an office affair (both married) and they got busted when the phones needed upgrading and they hadn't wiped the WhatsApp sext messages and naked selfies.

I did feel bad for laughing.

I agree. Its one of the few things I think you can actually judge someone for. No excuse IMO

Cheaters are "cunts" and "scum"...According to some posters on here. The usual MN reaction along with "just leave".
It has been nice to read some of the more measured responses. I doubt there is anyone who actively condoned cheating. It is wrong. i think we all get that. But without knowing all the circumstances and walking a mile or several decades in their shoes,to call someone a cunt or scum is more despicable than having an affair IMO.

If anyone called my friend a cunt for her affair (which damn near broke her almost as much as the divorce, so....yay?), I would know exactly which of them was the nasty, unthinking human being.

I would have agreed with you two years ago. When my BIL left my dsis for another, after 27 years of marriage. I loathed the utter scumbag. Dsis was devastated. In a way that affected every tiny aspect of her life. Her ability to do her work crumbled. Her family was broken/ruined. Never again would they all sit down for a meal together. Or go on holiday. They were no longer a family.

Then over time dsis made a few friends. Set up a new home. She and the dc (both uni age) went on a holiday together. And they preferred it without dad. It was better. Nobody was demanding they all get up at 8am to view a relic 50 miles away. There was nobody complaining their food was dry, it was too hot, why did nobody look like they were enjoying themselves enough. They for the first time ever, had a relaxing holiday.

Then, to cap it all, dsis hooked up with an old friend of a friend. And we all realised. She and ex had always bickered. There was always tension. Nothing was ever quite right. The new one was a better fit. They seemed happy. Calm. In tune. Even the dc liked him.

I think her dh would never have left without a reason to do so. He needed a reason. An excuse. And as a result, everybody is happier.

I don't think people who have affairs are thoroughly bad people. No human being is just bad, even those who are 90% evil still have a bit of good in them.

I do however think that we're all capable of choosing our actions and if you choose to do something that you know will cause pain and heartache to others then yes I would judge your actions (and your morals) and would never be able to fully trust you, knowing that you can just hurt others in such a way.

And no, I'm no saint either.

I think having an affair is such a cowardly thing to do... If you are unhappy with your partner, give them the respect and tell them and leave before embarking on an affair, you obviously loved them enough to be with them at some point, if the love has gone or got whatever reason they are unhappy, tell them and leave. The deceit of an affair will always stay and damage that person in more ways than anyone can think, whatever their reasons might be... There is no justification for an affair, end your current relationship first and then do whatever you want after...!!

I think her dh would never have left without a reason to do so. He needed a reason. An excuse.

This is true for a lot of affairs (exit affairs?). The marriage would have ended anyway and all the pain that came with that (lost years, effect on children, financial strain etc) wouldn't have been avoided. The affair isn't really the issue. It's just the final crystallisation and catalyst.

YANBU, OP, I have no respect for people who have affairs or those who carry on with a married person knowing full-well they're married.