To wonder where intersex people fit in the transgender argument?

[RestlessTraveller]

I've just read an article about model Hanne Gary Odiele who is intersex. She has XY chromosomes in keeping with men and internal testes that produce testosterone that her body then converts to oestrogen. There are numerous forms of intersex which can lead to all sorts of confusion when assigning gender to a baby.

If anyone wants to read it the article is here

www.theguardian.com/fashion/2017/apr/23/intersex-and-proud-hanne-gaby-odiele-the-model-finally-celebrating-her-body

I've seen many an argument on here about not being able to change sex, and "if you have a penis then you should be using men's toilets/changing rooms" and just wonder where somebody like Hanne would fit?

"Please stop talking for intersex people in your attempt to push the anti-trans agenda, its offensive and rude."

OR

Please stop talking for intersex people in your attempt to push the transactivist agenda, it's offensive and rude"

Depending on who you happen to be addressing.

Intersex is/has been an issue in sport for longer than the current trans issues.

Strangely a lot of the arguments run along the same lines.
Testosterone, bone structure, unfair advantage etc.

and its only recently that intersex can compete without drugs that suppress their bodies ability to produce testosterone.

and in the OP's defence a picture of Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba ad Margaret Wambui on the podium in Rio, was posted as a reason why trans (MTF) should not be allowed to compete against women in sport.

So there is still much confusion.

maybe confusion should be changed with ignorance.

I am not ignorant or confused. I absolutely realise that intersex is not the same as transgender and if you read my thread properly will see that. I was simply putting forward the premise that things are sometimes more complicated than penis=man AND in saying that I'm not trying to debunk anything, it just made me question that and as I said I was interested in other people's views.

Things are not more complicated than that, really.

Yes, a person with internal testicles whose body does not react to testosterone is technically male.

However, since this person has no penis with which to use a pissoir, (or, you know, rape), and looks female, this is a non-issue except for this person and their spouse if/when they want to have children.

An intersex person with testicles but no penis will be AFAB - assigned female at birth, and in fact, intersex people without penis but with other male characteristics are the only ones who are assigned female at birth - actual women are recognized as female.

So, such a person, if identifying as female, is a lowly ciswoman according to patriarchal transideology!

Anyone born with a penis is considered male, and is awarded male privilege by males, and should therefore not have access to women's spaces.

I didn't invent it. Patriarchy invented the "penis=male" principle. As a non-bepenised person, I do not get male privilege, and I therefore want my private spaces to be free of penises.

If there was a "not able to get pregnant=male" principle and a woman could just have surgery and be awarded male privilege, then perhaps I'd see things differently.

But this is how males wanted things to be, and now they can fucking deal with it. Including those males who would like access to women's spaces.

Intersex males who have an unfair advantage when allowed to compete against women in professional sports are a problem, but a relatively small one because there is a limited number of intersex people - as opposed to the unlimited number of ordinary males who might "feel like a woman" if this feeling enabled them to win gold medals in women's sports despite them not even being good enough to compete against men at any professional level.

Transgenderism is nothing to do with intersex at all?

If you are a transwoman then biologically in every way you are male and that can never be changed, but you just feel that appropriating societies idea of what 'women' means is the best choice for you. Which is fine, great in fact if it makes you happy, as long as you don't expect others to have to give up their rights in order for you to carry out your appropriation.

If you are intersex then biologically you have male and female characteristics.

Very very few transpeople are intersex. They are two completely different things.

Penis = man.

Yy vestal

Thousands of years of oppression which continues to this day, purely based on the premise that penis = male, and now women are told that they are just supposed to put that to one side, that 'biology doesn't matter' and 'who cares what's between people's legs' and give up their incredibly hard fought for spaces in the name of 'tolerance'.

No. Fuck that noise.

Intersex doesn't fit into the trans argument at all. They are two different things. The only time I see the two cross paths is when intersex people are being used as physiological evidence to add weight to the transgender psychological arguments. It sometimes is a bit crass but at the same time not always a bad thing because it opens the debate for genuinely non binary people to be celebrated, recognised and accepted by society.