Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think Ken Livingstone should have been expelled from the Labour Party for his Hitler comments

69 replies

ForalltheSaints · 04/04/2017 21:10

Labour Party has copped out big time by the 2 year suspension. Ken Livingstone should have accepted that he caused offence and was incorrect about the Nazis views and apologised.

[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/adolf-hitler-zionism-zionist-nazis-haavara-agreement-ken-livingstone-labour-antisemitism-row-a7009981.html]

OP posts:
fessmess · 06/04/2017 10:07

I think Ken was in the right. He stated a historical fact, in my opinion he was not being anti-semitic and so now we should move on. We have bigger fish to fry.

histinyhandsarefrozen · 06/04/2017 10:10

"A historical fact"?

A historical fact disputed by 99.9% of historians. Right.

samG76 · 06/04/2017 10:11

Fessmess - I'm sorry, but how do you know this? Are you an expert on the interwar German Jewish community?

It was not a historical fact that Rabbis were ordered to give sermons in Hebrew rather than Yiddish. It would be like claiming that Pope Benedict insisted that catholic priests give sermons in Latin.

It's also not true (and also offensive) to suggest that the SS trained Zionist pioneers in camps.

Hygellig · 06/04/2017 10:41

David Baddiel has written about this today here.

fessmess · 06/04/2017 10:42

I'm referring to "the quote" that Hitler supported Zionism, which he did.

histinyhandsarefrozen · 06/04/2017 10:48

It's very important to ken and a tiny group of revisionists to spread the historically inaccurate idea that Hitler supported Zionism.
I wonder what ken and that small group have in common?
You 'move on' Yourself, Fessmess

ErrolTheDragon · 06/04/2017 10:51

fessmess

Try reading the David Baddiel piece linked to directly above. He puts it very clearly:

'Ken Livingstone did not state a fact. The statement “Hitler supported Zionism” is not a fact. It’s an interpretation. An interpretation of a particular historical moment, which is that, in the 30s, the forced emigration of Jews from Germany was pushed further along by various Nazi economic incentives allowing those who fled to Palestine to get some of their stolen assets back once in Palestine. So that is not Adolf Hitler supporting the idea of a Jewish state (even writing that sounds ridiculous). It is the Nazis taking advantage of the terror and despair of fleeing refugees, so as to get more of them to leave more quickly'.

Wanting to purge Germany of the Jews by any means possible does not equate to 'supporting zionism', and it is at best disingenuous to suggest it does.

Pigface1 · 06/04/2017 10:55

The problem is with what he said.

There is evidence that Hitler originally supported a policy of forcibly resettling Jews (potentially in what we now know as the state of Israel).

That is NOT Zionism. Zionism is support for the creation and maintenance of a Jewish state, where Jews may or may not go and live - as they choose.

If I suggest that all people of Pakistani heritage in Britain should be forcibly returned to Pakistan, I don't think anyone would suggest that I was in some way promoting the nation of Pakistan. I think most people (quite rightly) would say I was a nutter.

And that is why his comments were revolting.

Hygellig · 06/04/2017 11:00

But Hitler didn't support Zionism, that's the point. Probably Ken just spoke without thinking rather than deliberately trying to be anti-Semitic, but he has a shaky grasp of history. See this article by Yale professor Timothy Snyder here for example about why his comments were inaccurate.

samG76 · 06/04/2017 11:50

Also, whether he was trying to be anti-semitic or not is irrelevant. In fact, when people say "I'm not a racist but......" it is usually followed by some hugely racist comment. Somehow Ken thinks that this doesn't apply to him.

There is a separate point as to why ken is so obsessed with Jews and the Middle East. There are loads of far more violent and unpleasant fights around the world, but Ken seems uniquely fixated on Jews.

TaraCarter · 06/04/2017 11:57

There is evidence that Hitler originally supported a policy of forcibly resettling Jews (potentially in what we now know as the state of Israel).

That is NOT Zionism. Zionism is support for the creation and maintenance of a Jewish state, where Jews may or may not go and live - as they choose.

That about sums it up.

Deadsouls · 06/04/2017 12:08

Can I ask something? As I'm not knowledgeable about it and Israeli Zionist friend is asking me what I think about ken livingstone. I'm a bit ambivalent about this particular subject tbh
However, from what little I do know, it does seem
Unusual that he hadn't been expelled. Can anyone say why?

samG76 · 06/04/2017 12:08

Ken mysteriously failed to mention that the Palestinian leader, Haj Amin al-Husseini, spent the war years in Berlin, where he helped the Nazis organize an anti-British and anti-semitic revolts in Iraq and more generally across the Middle east, in return for allying the Palestinians with the Germans. Of course this doesn't fit in with Ken's world outlook, which is that colonialism is at the root of all evil.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 06/04/2017 12:29

I think Ken was in the right. He stated a historical fact, in my opinion he was not being anti-semitic and so now we should move on. We have bigger fish to fry.

I will not 'move on'

HTH

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 06/04/2017 12:29

Oh and it wasn't a 'historical fact' either.

flyingwithwings · 06/04/2017 12:30

Watch the next 'ICM ' Poll Labour might be at 23% !

Batgirlspants · 06/04/2017 12:33

He's an idiot who knows he was wrong but is unable to apologise. He's like a toddler who keeps jumping up and down saying 'but I am right' he's arrogant

Firesuit · 06/04/2017 12:40

So he's wrong, offensive and (because he won't admit it) arrogant. Where does the anti-semitism come into it?

Is it that offending Jews makes you anti-semitic? That would make some sense, I was assuming he would have to say something derogatory to qualify.

TaraCarter · 06/04/2017 13:05

I think the anti-semitism is trying to paint Hitler (the man who led the movement that killed six million Jews!) as a reasonable type who originally just wanted Jewish people to have a safe space in the middle east.

TaraCarter · 06/04/2017 13:12

Minimising the horrors of Hitler's early plans, such as the forced expulsion and resettlement of German citizens from their homes, as "Zionism" does suggest a certain contempt for the victims.

tovelitime · 06/04/2017 13:23

Zionism is the belief in the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish homeland. It has nothing to do with whether one supports the actions of the current government. I am a staunch Zionist who believes wholeheartedly in the existence of a state of Israeli with equal rights for all who live there. I strongly disapprove of the actions of the current government and the building of the settlements but I'll support the right of the only democracy in the Middle East to exist until the day I die.

Ken is utterly poisonous

Deadsouls · 06/04/2017 13:27

But why was he not expelled from labour is what I'm not understanding?

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 06/04/2017 13:31

I can't see if anyone has mentioned this, but David Baddiel has written a good piece about this on FB and why Livingstone is wrong.

Deadsouls · 06/04/2017 13:31

Yes someone mentioned it.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 06/04/2017 13:32

But why was he not expelled from labour is what I'm not understanding?

It would seem that allegedly some in the Labour party either refuse to see what he has done or that is was wrong.