To not understand the Tony Blair hatred thing

[smashedinductionhob]

I remember Tony Blair being very popular in his day and recall him doing reasonably good things.

I do remember very clearly the run up to the Iraq war and saying to my husband that I did not agree with it as there was no actual plan and the US public seemed to think Saddam Hussain was connected to 9/11 which he wasn't.

I remember passionate supporters of ethnic minorities in Iraq supporting him and only a few brave clever people like Obama calling it as a mistake.

I failed to demonstrate. The dossier was identified in Parliament (by a small minority) as dodgy before the war started but most of us went along with it.

It was clear to me at the time that the PM was supporting the US as a matter of principle (a lousy principle but fairly obvious).

How did we get from there to TB as hate figure? Is he just a scapegoat?

[smashedinductionhob]

Yes re Clegg.

My goodness, who would go into politics?

The point about the left hating the compromises of power is interesting.

[TulipsInAJug]

My views of Tony Blair are nothing to do with the 'right-wing press'

Talk about a scapegoat!

And I don't actually think he was a war criminal, I think that's way OTT. But he did mislead people over it. And when Chilcot concluded that, he couldn't accept that he has made a mistake or did anything wrong.

He made mistakes, all leaders do, but what really gets my goat is his current reincarnation that is going to 'save Britain from itself' by deliberately derailing Brexit. He fails to see that the Remain argument was rejected partly because of its elitist,, privileged, arrogant and patronising character, which he personifies.

[smashedinductionhob]

You turned out to be right but that does not make him an object for actual hatred surely? Thegirlinthefireplace

[armpitz]

YY Tulips

And the very fact he can't see that is indicative of the problem!

[Applebite]

He's a slimy arrogant nobrot who took us to war on false pretences that will have ripple effects for years to come. And he has made a fortune out of so called left wing politics.

Fuck off tony and stick your WMD up your self centred arse.

[smashedinductionhob]

Well, yes, it makes him a bit foolish. But not evil.

[Hedgehogparty]

He's a war monger who seemed to be in thrall to the USA and George Bush.
Protesting voices were dismissed as unpatriotic
We went to War on flawed evidence which was wrong. Many people died.

His behaviour since leaving office has done nothing to redeem his reputation - he comes across as consumed by greed...

[Crumbs1]

He's actually a really nice man and definitely not a war monger. He's certainly not a war criminal except in eyes of Daily Mail and Sun.
There was a UN resolution. Our intelligence services gave him false information. There was genocide in Iraq. The Chilcot report is clear there were no war crimes.

He didn't lead us into the Gulf Wars did he? That was Thatcher and Major and they were the wars that begun the destabilising of the Arab Spring.

[Beeziekn33ze]

Some Labour Party members were, in 1997, deluded by BLiar. I feel personally betrayed and let down by him, irrational perhaps but I do.
It adds insult to injury that having been 'peace envoy to the Middle East' ( God help them) he now, with expensive (to us) security around him, shamelessly tours the globe pontificating to the rich in after dinner speeches and 'earning' zillions.
I was surprised to hear him recently talking sense about Brexit but I doubt I'll ever rejoin the Labour Party.

[Moussemoose]

Was he a warmonger on Kosovo?

[TulipsInAJug]

Did anyone see the 'Blair Rich Project' documentary? About the gazillions he has made since being PM.

[Roussette]

I loathed Blair at the time and I loathe him now.

I will never forgive him for what happened to David Kelly (weapons expert used by the Govt during and after the Iraq war). Blair no doubt authorised a leak of Kelly's identity. Kelly was put under such immense pressure, and even now I don't believe he committed suicide, nor does the medical profession, which can only point to murder.

Blair was always in it for himself, the glory, the kudos. As was his wife. I shall never forget an interview after the Iraq War with Blair saying that God told him to go to war. Blame it all on a higher being then...

[HumphreyCobblers]

Was he a warmonger on Kosovo?

No. He insisted on intervention which saved thousands of lives.

[Oblomov17]

He was the golden boy. Young, attractive , could do no wrong.
Later when we looked back, we saw all sorts of bad stuff he'd done, not just the iraq war, but other stuff, in his own interests, and the amount of money he made off the back of it, that made us see him in a new light.

I wasn't that keen before. Now I find him creepy.

[Thegirlinthefireplace]

Given the consequences of the Iraq invasion and that it was preventable if he had listened to the many, many voices of concern I don't think it's an unreasonable reaction. That said, I don't personally hate him, but there is no respect for him.

[HumphreyCobblers]

It is his speaking style that makes me shudder. All those pauses and saying "Look" with a hint of exasperation at every question.

The God thing is so worrying. When politicians bring God into it it never ends well.

[AYankinSpanx]

I am no fan of Tony Blair, but the Bliar and Liebour is getting a bit grating now. Nick Clegg was a twat and his party should never have gone into coalition, but NC is a nice guy in rl, he really is.

I thought that 'do you want some? Eh? EH?' Christmas card of Blair and Cherie was unintentionally funny though. Only wish I could link a pic

[TulipsInAJug]

He has shamelessly flouted his kudos and used his contacts made as PM to enrich himself, his main clients including oil firms in Saudi Arabia and Iraq, leaders of Abu Dhabi and the dictator of Kazakhstan. He also set himself up as an expert on peace and reconciliation (oh, the irony) but has achieved nothing, to my knowledge.

[badabing36]

HumphreyCobblers makes a lot of sense. I believe Blair thought he was doing the right thing in Iraq.

It is incredibly reductionist to blame the Iraq war for Isis and the horrible state of affairs in the Middle East now. After all, we were already in Afghanistan and al-qaeda were already committing terrorist atrocities.

You could equally be equally reductionist and blame Cameron and Obama for taking troops out of Iraq before order was truly restored. But that's not what the media say.

I too am left of Blair, and I only like Corbyn because he is the only anti-austerity option at the moment. But I would ask Blair back in heartbeat if it would stop Tory cuts and double speak.

[dangermouseisace]

I can't stand the man.

I was part of the anti war movement. I was on those 2 huge marches. I remember us all thinking that any decent democratic leader would listen to the concerns of intelligent argument- e.g. experts in International Relations/Global security, and the sheer numbers of people on the street. We really thought he would listen. When he didn't we were devastated, and the listening to 'God' shit just made me sick. It wasn't about God it was about oil. The whole thing panned out much as expected, and the current situation in the middle east can be directly traced back to the Iraq war. Saddam Hussein was awful, but the situation now for people in Iraq is worse. It gave fuel to Al Quaida/ISIS.
This wasn't a little mistake, it was a complete disaster and has resounding effects today. It also felt wrong that he was happy to mess up Iraq stating it was because Sadam was terrible, but didn't do anything when Israel was bombing Palestinians.

So, that was bad enough, and then he went on to be a peace envoy to the middle east?! Just how inappropriate was that? The man who was instrumental in messing it up going to broker peace with leThe sheer audacity of him. Again, another check against him.

Being an unashamed capitalist, when he proclaims to be a socialist, yup that's another one.

Tuition fees and the abolition of the grant (just as I was going to uni).

His admin brought in ATOS on work capability assessments.

Generally, I think the hatred is more about his actions on the international stage rather than domestic. So many lives lost. How can anyone forgive that? He's not even sorry!!!!

[dangermouseisace]

badabing Tony Blair is the one who went to war in Afghanistan, so no it is not reductionist.

.

[badabing36]

Yes I know after 9/11.

[unlucky83]

The Iraq war made me truly ashamed to be British....
It is the first war situation I can think of in recent times that we started.
Whatever we think of the situation in another country we have no right to change the regime through force. We can support a population to other throw their leader - where we can- say if they start a civil war etc but not just because we don't like the way a country is run.
When Sadam invaded Kuwait we were right to help the Kuwaities - Sadam was the aggressor. Then at the end of the first gulf war the US (Bush in fact) encouraged the Northern and Southern Iraqis to try and overthrow Sadam - they believed the US would back them up but they didn't and left them to be mass murdered and their homelands destroyed. Maybe Bush felt guilt about that (along with worries about Oil)...
Blair ...I think was power hungry, wanted fame and to be remembered. He wanted to be the longest serving British PM - longer than Margaret Thatcher - and I think he thought that Iraqi would be his 'Falklands'...he would go down in history as a great saviour - but whatever you think about the Falklands we didn't start it - Argentina did... it was different.
(And John Major was the instigator of the Good Friday agreement)
What sums up the Blair years to me is I think it was Clare Short accused him and Bush agreeing to the Iraq invasion many months before - in an interview denying it he said 'we never agreed a date' . Carefully chosen words - nothing in that to say they hadn't agreed say the first week in March - just not the precise date. (And Alastair Campbell was a bully and if journalists tried to push too hard for answers he would prevent them future access...)
I actually never liked Blair - didn't vote for him, never trusted him...he seemed to be all things to all people. He never seemed to genuinely believe in anything he did - seemed fake - it was all about being popular, he wasn't a conviction politician. I don't think he cared about anyone but himself - his own career and money. It wasn't about helping people -it was about looking good ....and keeping power. And as a result caused a lot of damage to this country.
Immigration - isn't there something about how he didn't limit eg Polish immigration (as lots of other EU countries did) in order to piss off the Tories?
Also immigrants are more likely to vote Labour and it was a way of increasing their vote.
And the more people you have (as adults) the higher the GDP of a country....so it looks like the economy is doing better than it actually is (unless you look at GDP per captia which takes into account population)
And the surge in immigration added fuel to the housing crisis - and there was no attempt to control the rising house prices as it made people feel wealthy.
And when people struggled to afford property - the solution was to raise wages ( especially in the public sector) - which has led to funding problems - people are too expensive to employ - so you get things like nurses doing things doctors did and HCA doing jobs nurses did - or TAs doing teacher's jobs. Even the NMW - it is the highest (or next to) in the EU - so even those HCAs and TAs are expensive.
(Being paid £30k pa with housing costs of £10k pa - is the same as earning £22k and paying £2k pa housing....so the public purse is finding an extra £8k to pay a buy to let landlord...)
And property price inflation contributed to encouraging people to live on credit - the more they spent the more money went into the economy, the better it seemed to be doing - but it wasn't 'real' wealth - of course at some point the money had to be paid back...

Increasing and therefore devaluing degrees was about reducing youth unemployment - the longer people stay in education the lower the unemployment figures.
Tax credits were supposed to make working more worthwhile than living on benefits - but it was badly thought through. Plus they didn't have the courage to change benefits (to certain sectors) so the tax credits had to be higher... and also when it was introduced it wasn't pushed as a benefit - I remember DP (self employed at the time) being written to several times by HMRC - encouraging him to take up his allowance if he was eligible...
Also DP was paid to employ people - their wages were paid and he got money on top of that for employing them. For jobs like kitchen porters - not skilled roles with a future. And some of the schemes were run by companies who I assume got some kind of cut - when he advertised a job they'd turn up and suggest people to him - and when the fixed term employment came to an end either managed to extent it some way or tried to get him to take on another 'client' ...
I could go on and on - but I really hate Blair.
The only good thing I can say about him was he was a good politician...
(And the SNP reminds me of Nu labour and Blair....)

[dangermouseisace]

which had nothing to do with the Afghan people

[Crumbs1]

No right to bring about regime change? Would be say the same of Hitler? Can we stand aside and watch genocide?
Many Iraqi people would say life was much better now.
He could only be the longest serving PM because he was voted in.
Under his government we saw the introduction of the minimum wage
Progression to peace in NI and GF agreement
Increased spending on health and education
More poor children going to university
Improved Equality legislation and equality of age of consent
Human Rights Act
Halving of child poverty

Not such a bad legacy. The heavily criticised inational debt has, of course, increased significantly and disproportionately under the subsequent governments.