Keeping child in at lunchtime for failure to complete work

[Elizabeth1970]

Is this reasonable that my child's school have decided to keep her inside at lunchtime if she has not completed her work, she is in yr 1.
She struggles with writing so takes a long time even at home with no distractions ( only child ) to complete a writing task so I feel it's very unfair she is banned from going out after lunch, instead being sent back to class to continue the writing task.
Break times are unaffected so she has 15 minutes at 10am and another 15 at 2pm but this is all most days now.

armpitz:

That's okay.

Trifleorbust, but not all teachers agree with you so it doesn't mean you are right just because you are a teacher.

No, trifle, I don't agree it is obvious, as the post I highlighted was a follow on from your post:

Maybe. Maybe not. I'm a teacher too and I think not, to be honest. Most students would struggle, starting at 7, to catch up to where students are who start at 4 by GCSE. Again, in my opinion.

For you to have more insight than most, you would have to have taught a significant number of children who started at 7 and been able to compare with children who started at 4. That seems an unlikely position for a secondary teacher to be in.

I don't know that it is Trifle

I'm honestly a bit taken aback at how many people think depriving such a young child of time to play, socialise with her peers and renew her concentration levels, is in any way conducive to learning.

When children get older it's possible not working is an act of defiance and that's different but it's also easy to confuse defiance with lack of understanding.

I do think we need to move away from lost breaks and lunch times as a punishment. I think these should be considered a right.

people who have taught hundreds or even thousands of children have more insight into what will or won't help more if those children to learn, than non-educators

Absolutely not clear at all. Teachers have no insight into the long term impacts of their teaching - they are going to develop an experience for what works in the shop term. They teach children for a year.

That's why we don't simply let teachers get on with it we conduct research and that governs (or should govern) what teachers are trained to do.

Sailorcherries - surely if a child had spent a full hour talking that would be noticed during the lesson and stopped there and then ? How are children spending full lessons not doing any work for teachers not to notice ?

Trifleorbust you may think you have more insight than a parent but you don't have more insight than people who conduct educational research. You would be ignorant to imagine you do. You have no idea about the long term consequence of your teaching on students mental health or long term educational outcome because you have not conducted any long term study. You also don't know the impact your teaching has on their immediate mental health.

As I've said before if you are a teacher (who spends most of her day posting on mumsnet) you have neglected to keep up to date on educational research or EU law which guarantees children the right to education.

sorry should be the right to recreation.

I fully agree with armpits. Breaks should be a right for children regardless of whether they have done the work fully or not .

I think Trifle might be on maternity leave to be fair there! She mentioned a young baby in another post! (Sorry if I've confused you with someone else Trifle!)

But when teaching anyone - animal or human - something, if they aren't cooperating, forcing them to sit down until they do just isn't going to work.

armpitz It is considered a right under EU law. You can insist upon it for your child. I don't know if Trifle really is a teacher but she consistently posts deliberately argumentative posts that are basically the polar opposite of current good practise in the classroom and her views are completely contradicted by most educational research.

Pop cakes
Secondary teachers don't necessarily teach kids for just a year. I have some kids i have had in my groups for years on end, top set y9, followed by triple science, followed by A level biology, thinking of several in one of my y13 classes. So you can indeed see trends.
In addition to which many teachers do research themselves into various aspects of pedagogy, we certainly do in my school.

OK Sheraze and armpits.

You are a teacher and you notice a child in your class messing about rather be than working. What would you do about it? I'm sure all the teachers on MN will be waiting the enlightenment on how this situation can be solved without there being consequences.

Increasingly

If they are messing about in the lesson usually I'd approach them about the work rather than behaviour (assuming it's 'low level' stuff!) So for instance 'how are you getting on with your story, Jack?' rather than 'Jack, stop giggling and whispering to Phoebe.' Gets them less defensive. Sometimes.

If they sort of gawp and you and shrug that's kid code for 'I don't know WTF to do' so I might say something like 'do you want an idea to start it?' or 'do you want me to explain it to you again?' or 'do you want to have a quick look at Phoebe's to see what the table should look like?'

If they are still not cooperating it might be appropriate to get them to step outside and calm down (this one works for gigglers as they soon realise there is nothing funny outside the classroom.)

Bribery can work. We have three levels of rewards. I often say 'I tell you what, if you manage to finish that I'll give you a (first reward)' Lots of kids love showing their work off so you can offer to tell Mr or Mrs X how WELL they did (!) or even ring parents to let them know that Jack was very sensible and settled down.

If someone's being persistently disruptive you need to remove them.

If someone's persistently not working then theres a real problem and it needs flagging.

If someone's having a giddy and silly day then it's not going to be improved by making them lose the time allocated TO be giddy and silly!

Gawp AT you and shrug, that should read!

Rosieposy4 You don't have the statistics to conduct any significant research or to account for external factors which you won't be aware of. You also won't be aware of the impact of your teaching on the students mental health for example because you are not privy to that information. Lots of teachers I know read research papers and incorporate firmly established results into the way they teach.

This isn't a criticism of teachers - a teacher is going to be much more capable than anyone else of actually enacting good practise. It's all very well to know e.g. to use positive behaviour management techniques but to actually do it successfully needs experience and skill.

My issue is with someone coming along saying "i'm a teacher I know this works" when what they're saying is directly contradicted by a huge wealth of evidence.

I am a primary school teacher. I've worked in the public and private sector.

For a start , I wouldn't just let them mess about routinely for lessons on end and then get them to catch up in break.

There are many, many different possibilities as to why the child is messing about .
It could be they don't understand the work
The work is not pitched at their level - too easy or too hard
It could be that they are not interested in it
There could be factors affecting concentration like: tiredness, hunger
It could be a one off
It could be recurring
It could a behavioural issue , it could be cognitive
Every child and situation is different and would be addressed accordingly .
For children who mess about for no apparent reason , you engage with them and refocus them . You don't just watch them chat for a full hour and then keep them in. You try to address what the problem is and then go from there . You might find that the child needs to change group or place , or needs different work, or needs a five minute explanation which you would try to do in lesson time , or needs further support from other staff , or needs a practical activity, or has a different learning style that is not been catered to, or needs an abacus or a dictionary or whatever . I can't tell you in one post what I'd do as it depends on the child and the problem . A good teacher is fluid and dynamic . There's no one size fits all am afraid .

I should add as well that I haven't always had this philosophy

I was a right twat once and I thought if you shouted at them, they behaved, that if you punished them and made them miserable , they wouldn't want to be miserable and punished so would behave and that it was tough luck if they had ADHD/ASD, The Real World would not make allowances for them (yeah, I really was a twat ) so why should I?

It was a quote that changed my mind on my training course (luckily before I met any real children.) It simply said 'behaviour is the language of the child.' For some reason it struck a chord with me. I've worked with animals for a long time and I realised my horse isn't being 'naughty' when she refuses to go in her horse box, she is telling me she's afraid. I don't yell at her and try to drag her in. I stand with her and I see what she's seeing and I let her know she is safe. Why so different to children? I don't scream at my dog or horse. I don't punish them but I do praise and reward them. Sometimes for their safety and mine I might need to remove them from a situation.

If a child isn't doing her work, she's telling you something. If your only answer is 'you WILL do it' then you're not listening to her question. And if you do listen to it, you might find she's telling you something very important.

sherazade You sound amazing - I hope my DC always have teachers like you (so far so lucky for us!)

sherazade thank you for assuming I do bugger all but watch them chat for a full hour.

In my hour and a half/hour and 45 minute literacy lesson which is to include reading, a reading activity and spelling or phonics I have 5 different spelling groups and 6 different reading groups, plus an eal learner and children with support needs. I also teach a multi-composite class with 3 different stages and 3 different sets of outcomes to achieve.
I spend roughly 10 minutes with each group but cannot see each group each day, leaving me with little time to circulate but I do while groups are coming to/leaving the teaching area and, for obvious reasons, certain children need more support than others. I have no classroom support due to budget cuts.

If I see a child chatting I do go over to them, ask about the work and try to work with them for a few minutes. However, with so many different groups and needs I cannot do this too often as I then cannot teach.

This isn't a common occurance nor would I 'routinely let them mess around for lessons on end' and normally it is high achieving children who can't be bothered to write at that time and would rather discuss their weekend/what they're doing after school/Fifa 17 (speaking to them they know what they are doing and can participate in discussions about the task) but when it does happen it as addressed to the best of my ability while still trying to teach such a vast range of groups and abilities. I cannot spend time constantly correcting low level behaviour to the detriment of every other child. The ones who have been kept in know why, can understand and do finish the work withon 5 or 10 minutes which indicates they were just messing around.

Unfortunately that is the reality of many teachers these days.

PopCakes:

How hilariously rude.

Also I don't shout at them, belittle their work or make a big deal out of them talking. I go and sit with them, discuss the work and engage with them. I let them know they are on the right track or spend time going over tasks again to make sure they understand. I then remind them they have 'x amount of time until break' and that I'll be back to see how they're doing in 'x amount of time'.

Sometimes no amount of teacher support, encouragement, praise or moved seats will stop a particular child chatting at that particular time.

Regarding all this talk of educational research and evidence: actually, there are really not very many practices in education that actually have sufficient good quality research to back them up as being strongly evidence-based. This is partly because it is very difficult to design high quality studies in classrooms, due to there being so many variables, and also due to the expense.

I'm not going to engage multiple posters over this. I can see when people are determined to be rude and aggressive. I do think teachers, as the front line in education, have more insight than non-teachers. Naturally those non-teachers who hold particularly...ahem...strong views aren't going to agree when I say this. That's life.

armpitz:

Thanks. Feeding her and enjoying a lovely Mother's Day as we speak. Back to work in a couple of weeks.