Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder how we determine if a rape accusation is false?

197 replies

FlinchGirl · 24/03/2017 13:34

It seems just about everyone I talk to about this "knows" someone who was definitely falsely accused whilst their accuser apparently got away scott free.

But how do we determine whether an accusation is false?

A claim being withdrawn or charges being dropped or a not guilty verdict being reached does not mean the accusation were false, surely? But those are always the responses I get when I ask how they know the accusations were false. Occasionally the accuser apparently admitted they made it up but then when you probe further it becomes apparent that there is no evidence such a confession took place; it is just what people perceived to have happened and is now being repeated as fact.

I can't say I blame women in being reluctant to report rape Sad

OP posts:
Graphista · 25/03/2017 18:09

Long post NOT sorry

I have never in real life or read about a genuine case of false accusation. I believe they happen but believe those that deal with such crimes that it's incredibly rare.

The combination of it being a crime that generally happens in private, plus the misogynistic societal attitude to rape and rape victims means it's incredibly hard to get rapists convicted - doesn't mean they're not rapists.

"the victim might not come across too well (too many prior partners for a jury to be sympathetic, prior sexual contact with the accused, drunkenness, etc.)" and here is a large part of the problem! This is NOT 'the victim not coming across too well' but the victim being further victimised and blamed when the only person to blame is the rapist!

"I would distrust any claim that a rape accusation was false if it is proven that PiV happened." Me too. CCTV can't tell investigators/jurors if there were threats made, coercion or even very well if victim was too intoxicated to consent.

It's common for genuine rape victims to recant because of:

how rape victims are treated
How those close to them react
Under pressure from perpetrator or their friends/family
Because they're scared of their rapist
Because they don't feel strong enough to go through a trial.

"I would like to see the Scottish legal system's verdict of "not proven" for cases where there is no clear cut guilty / not guilty." As a Scot I agree. Frequently see/hear people equating 'not guilty' with 'innocent' no! Given how much evidence is needed JUST to get a case to court I don't believe that's always the case.

"I'm not sure what you mean by "endure the way rape victims are treated in court just to get back at him". Rape accusers must be questioned and defense teams must be given the opportunity to cross examine. Lowering the burden of proof in a rape trial compared to anything else simply mustn't be allowed."

Do you know how rape complainants are treated? Questioned and cross-examined yes - as should the accused. But how often do you see victims of other crimes (especially men) expected to defend

Their lifestyle (and in this case sex life) prior to the crime ?
What they were wearing at the time, including underwear, make up and hairstyle and did it make them 'look older than 16' ?
If they were intoxicated at the time and if so how much ?
Their location at the time and if it was 'wise' to be there ? (Ie 'know your place women!'
EXACTLY what they said to the accused ?
Did they 'entice' the accused to commit the crime ?
The nature of the relationship with the accused ?

Yet the accused is rarely subjected to similar scrutiny or held to a similar moral standard.

Does the accused:

Have a history of abusing their sexual partners? Like rough sex? (Imo the SECOND the defence goes down this route then the accused's history is fair game too!)
Were they dressed? Wearing easily removable clothes? Wearing dark clothes so they couldn't be seen?
Were they intoxicated? If so how much?
Why were they in that location at that time?
EXACTLY what they said to the accuser
did they coerce/manipulate the accuser into a situation/location they were more vulnerable to an attack? To make them think it wasn't 'really' rape.
The nature of their relationship with the accuser?

Sort of agree with:

"It is perfectly possible for me to genuinely believe I have been raped, and for the accused to genuinely believe himself to be innocent." But I do believe the majority of the time the accused believes it wasn't rape is because they misunderstand/disagree with what constitutes consent/rape.

"but for those that are falsely accused it is life changing" yes - as is rape.

I don't think people expect rape trials to have a lesser burden of proof but that the burden of proof for other crimes IS lesser. People focus on 'beyond ALL reasonable doubt' in rape trials where the emphasis should be 'beyond all REASONABLE doubt' far too many people believe the myths.

"You come across cases with the most ridiculous stories by the defendant being accepted" exactly! As seen in some recent high profile cases!

"Juries don't bend over backwards to let burglars go free just because they look nice in a suit either." Or judges! Wealthy, educated, well-connected rapists are rarely if ever convicted - I can't think of one!

"That doesn't mean we should have a lower standard of proof for rape. It means recognising that we have to have a different approach to investigation and prosecution, than we do for burglary. Scrutinising the defendant's attitudes and behaviour would be a start." Excellent point!

"The conviction rate for rapes in court is fairly consistent with other crimes. Juries aren't bending over backwards to find these men innocent." I wholeheartedly disagree! And it is not just juries it's judges too. Far fewer rape cases reach court compared to other crimes for starters, then even when they do a conviction for burglary is twice as likely as a conviction for rape. Even if a rapist IS convicted the victim is STILL vilified and the rapist EXCUSED!

Scottish stats
6% of rapes reported to police reach court
33% of rape cases that reach court result in conviction
78% of burglary cases that reach court result in conviction.

"I have always wondered, if 90% of rapes are unreported, how do we know about them?" It's all in full disclosure - 90% of rapes are unreported TO POLICE but they are reported to a&e staff, gp's & nurses, social workers, health visitors, midwives, rape crisis, mental health services...

"their main witness was unreliable" given the nature of sexual assault/rape I'm guessing you mean the alleged victim? And if so 'unreliable' could mean she was too distressed to give evidence not necessarily that she was wrong.

Lux

what about serial rapists? As a pp says how are police supposed to investigate if not allowed to reveal accused's name? Particularly in serial/child abuse ring cases where they need to know if there are more victims/witnesses out there?

"Either there is evidence or not" what evidence do you think is needed? Or is even available?! Do you think all rapes are 'obvious'? Leave physical evidence? What about date rape? Drug rape? Rape within relationships ? Coerced rape?

Not guilty does NOT necessarily mean innocent.

Victims of child abuse when still children sometimes accuse someone 'safer' purely out of fear of their abuser.

Your post is clearly ignorant and you have little knowledge or experience in the area.

Marsin are you SERIOUS you think rape culture doesn't exist?!!!

Very VERY few false allegations are made.

I'm asking what you think we could do to change that? Genuine question!

It starts on a general societal level right up to judges and legislators attitudes

Educate everyone: children, those in positions likely to hear a disclosure, lawyers etc properly on consent, respect for others bodies and personal space, and what rape and sexual assault are.

Train professionals rape victims are more likely to disclose to on how to handle that disclosure.

Train lawyers properly as part of their initial training on rape myths, long term consequences for victims. Clearly current training isn't working.

All perpetuating of rape myths in media and entertainment should be challenged. By us all. Depiction of rape as 'passionate sex' on tv and film subject to close scrutiny and has to be made clear it is rape.

Stop judges and lawyers from perpetuating rape myths in court or in comments they make in their position as judges/lawyers. It's insane this is allowed.

As I said earlier, the accused MUST be subjected to the SAME scrutiny as the accuser. Although personally I think how a victim was dressed etc shouldn't be admitted as evidence - this type of evidence isn't admitted for other crimes.

"Why are defendant's ex girlfriends not brought into court to testify about their normal sexual behaviour and attitudes, in the way that victim's sexual partners are? Hmm? Can you imagine the horror some of these rapey blokes would feel, if it came out in court how they regularly coerced their girlfriends into unwanted sex acts? But that's not allowed, while a woman's sexual history can be picked apart to prove that she's a slut who can't be really raped because she's up for it all the time." As I said I cannot recall EVER reading that this ever happens but I don't know the specific law on this.

IF there is no legal reason why this DOESN'T happen WHY do police not investigate the accused's prior sexual history? WHY doesn't the prosecution bring this evidence into court?

I've been googling using various different terms and CANNOT find ANYTHING definitive on if the ACCUSED's sexual history is admissible can any lawyers clarify?

Graphista · 25/03/2017 18:10

nicknacky I find your posts particularly worrying as you claim to have been directly involved in rape cases.

"we discover there was no crime committed or it was mistaken/malicious/whatever you want to call it." Who decides that? On what criteria?

"Sexual offences are generally investigated properly and victims treated the way they should be" - again according to who?

"you will struggle to find a officer which a similar working background to mine that will disagree." That seems presumptuous and arrogant!

"Hmm. Take a look at how the Sapphire team, the gold standard of rape offences investigators, treated the women who reported John Worboys and then tell me that all the other teams around the country, who don't measure up to even Sapphire's standard, are investigating properly and treating victims the way they should be.

The figures are against you Nicky."

Exactly.

Let's take a look at some high profile cases and how 'well' they were handled eh?

First 2 pages of a Google:

WAYNE SCOTT a police officer himself who's behaviour went unchallenged by other officers for YEARS

Avon & Somerset currently under investigation for:
Labelling rape victims as mentally ill instead of believing them & investigating the crimes reported.
Not recording rapes.
Recording rapes falsely as other crimes.

ALMOST 20,000 CASES UNDER REVIEW!

Ched Evans
Rotherham
Rochdale
John Worboys
Stephen port
Kirk Reid

NOW tell me we can trust the police to treat rape victims properly and investigate thoroughly!

Your attitude, denial of the reality is deeply worrying! And I speak as a sister of an officer!

"I think it's terrifying people like you work with rape victims" agree!

Nicknacky · 25/03/2017 20:31

graphista

So despite my saying I and my team investigate all sexual offences to the best of my ability, treat every person as I expect to be treated myself, then that is deeply worrying?

Ok then! Oh but if your sister is a cop then you must know everything.

My victims/witnesses will disagree with you. I took two days out of my personal life this week to deal with a witness and left my own child at home unwell to fulfil an arrangement to meet with a victim a long distance from home.

Enquiries have to pass through the DI, Divisionalrape investigation and crime management before any consideration is giving to writing off an enquiry. Don't underestimate how much enquiry is done. We all want offenders locked up, it's why we joined the police.

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 25/03/2017 20:34

nick

She said she was the sister of an officer

Not her sister was an officer

sonyaya · 26/03/2017 11:04

graphista

S41 of the youth justice and criminal evidence act is the law restricting cross examination of a complainant's sexual history. It applies to the sexual history of the complainant but it provides no protection at all to the accused.

So in answer to your question, yes the accused' sexual history is admissible.

nicknacky

I don't doubt you do your best. If the evidence isn't there, it isn't there.

HandbagCrab · 26/03/2017 11:27

Every thread on here about rape focuses on what the victim did or did not do. 1000s of posts. Even when it's a child.

Nearly every police officer I have met in their professional capacity has treated me like I'm a liar. When I've been a victim of a non violent crime and when I've been a witness to a crime.

I've never met a woman, man or child who has made a false accusation of rape. I've met plenty who have been raped or seriously sexually assaulted and have never gone to the police about it or even entertained the idea.

If all the above were opposite I think it would be worth discussing false allegations, as it stands, it's just a smokescreen of 'fairness' to hide the shitty reality of what's actually happening.

Graphista · 26/03/2017 14:49

Nicknacky

It's actually my brother who's an officer. So yes I DO Know an officer that would disagree. He's seen and heard some officers behave appallingly in reference to such victims. He finds it infuriating.

I have also dealt with officers in this area, some were great, some were ignorant and naive, some shouldn't be in the job!

Your posts on this thread alone display an arrogance and scepticism that IS worrying in someone who is dealing with rape victims and witnesseses.

You haven't even answered my perfectly reasonable questions

"we discover there was no crime committed or it was mistaken/malicious/whatever you want to call it." Who decides that? On what criteria?

"Sexual offences are generally investigated properly and victims treated the way they should be" - again according to who?

You also have not addressed the well known failures of some forces and officers that I and another poster pointed out. (And that's just the ones we know about I know a lot gets under reported)

You don't have to BUT don't then try to make out that all/most officers are wonderful and deal with victims and witnesses sensitively, appropriately and professionally because they DON'T!

Sonyaya

Thanks for that info.

As I said earlier it then begs the questions

WHY do police not investigate the accused's prior sexual history? WHY doesn't the prosecution bring this evidence into court?

I have NEVER read of a case where that's happened. If the victims prior sexual history is fair game then SO SHOULD THE ACCUSED'S BE!

I'm willing to bet THAT would increase convictions!

sonyaya · 26/03/2017 15:05

graphista

Genuine question, but why would bringing in the accused's sexual history help the prosecution? I was raped and I didn't dare report it because I knew I wouldn't stand a chance. I am therefore very interested in ways that convictions can be increased in a way that also ensures a fair trial for the accused. It has never occurred to me that this is something which would help the prosecution and I am interested in your thoughts on why it might.

sonyaya · 26/03/2017 15:06

Also the accused's sexual history isn't "fair game". I'm sorry but that just isn't true. There are very limited exceptions to the ban on mentioning it, and they are very rarely permitted. Vast majority of rape trials it isn't mentioned.

NotCarylChurchill · 26/03/2017 15:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 26/03/2017 15:34

Thanks caryl

I would have thought that at 13 the records would cease to exist in adulthood

But i have been wrong many times before

NotCarylChurchill · 26/03/2017 15:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sonyaya · 26/03/2017 17:27

caryl
I'm sorry for what has happened to you, which is unacceptable. You can withdraw allegations these days without 'admitting' you lied so your experience will not be something which happens these days thankfully.

Graphista · 26/03/2017 17:49

Sonyaya sorry you've been through that. Flowers

"Genuine question, but why would bringing in the accused's sexual history help the prosecution? "

Because the accused's (the alleged rapist) sexual history may show a predilection for sexually abusing his partners, being rough/violent with sexual partners, having a poor grasp on what consent is...

Also in the interest of balance, if the victims sexual history has been admitted into evidence then so should the the alleged rapists.

I also think IF this was the case some defence lawyers might think twice about pushing for the victims sexual history to be entered into evidence if it resulted in their clients less than presentable sexual history also being entered into evidence.

Caryl so sorry you went through that Flowers

HundredsAndThousandsOfThem · 26/03/2017 17:55

Graphista Great post. I'd also like to know the answers to those questions.

AskBasil · 26/03/2017 19:21

"Nicknacky
I don't doubt you do your best. If the evidence isn't there, it isn't there.".

Yeah, it helps to look for the evidence though.

Lots of police forces just don't bother. They dismiss women's allegations as false/ ridiculous/ mistaken/ whatever you want to call it.

It's also simply untrue to say that the rule against victim's past sexual behaviour being brought into the case is very rarely waived. It is very often requested and very rarely not granted.

I have no doubt whatsoever that in the aftermath of the Ched Evans case, the number of requests to force victims to talk about their past sexual behaviour has gone through the roof.

It worked for him didn't it. It works. That's why it's used.

sonyaya · 26/03/2017 19:30

very rarely not granted

That is straightforwardly inaccurate and the fact you have said it demonstrates to me your utter ignorance of the criminal court process.

Graphista · 26/03/2017 21:17

I've yet to come across any case where the complainants past sexual history has ANYTHING to do with whether a rape took place.

Most reported rape cases do seem to refer to complainants past sexual and romantic history, can't recall ever reading about a defendants until they are convicted and even then it's only if they've been accused/convicted of similar offences before.

I can see why a defendants sexual history could be though.

Would be interested to know percentage of cases ask for that waiver and what percentage of cases have the complainants sexual history entered into evidence.

Graphista · 26/03/2017 21:19

Also the way rape cases are reported needs to change, with reference to reporting of past sexual/relationship history that seems to me to err toward violating the anonymity laws too.

AskBasil · 26/03/2017 22:43

Really Sonyaya? Have you got figures then? Because last thing I read, was that the loophole is being used fare more often than was anticipated and that defence teams are rarely refused permission to use sexual history. Do you know of figures which show otherwise?

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 26/03/2017 22:46

According to figures collected by Dame Vera Baird, the former solicitor general and now Northumbria Police and Crime Commissioner, a woman’s sexual history was admitted as evidence in 11 out of 30 rape cases in Northumbria between January 2015 to June 2016.

NotCarylChurchill · 27/03/2017 13:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NotCarylChurchill · 27/03/2017 13:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DJBaggySmalls · 27/03/2017 13:48

When people talk about evidence, they mean 'have you been injured'. What they dont mean is you can be trusted to tel the truth.
What is never explained is what women are supposed to get out of making a false rape accusation.
Women who make an accusation find the process as traumatic as the attack. Its a fantasy to claim they do it for attention.

lottieandmia · 27/03/2017 13:59

My friend who was in the police recently told me that it was her experience that false rape accusations were often made.

I don't agree with her I have to say Hmm

Swipe left for the next trending thread