Colleague and incontinence WWYD?

[user1481140239]

This is a tough one, more of a WWYD really. Have a colleague who has a physical disability and related incontinence. She is very feisty, can be a bit scary, and a real free spirit too. She can be very difficult at work so I feel I have to tread carefully around her, everybody does a bit.

The problem is, she also has poor personal hygiene and smells very strongly of stale urine. This is related to her disability but could easily be managed, (I did a bit of research on it) as I say cleanliness and hygiene is not a priority for her but it definitely is more of a chore for her so I get that. But It is getting to the point where I can't eat my lunch near her (she sits near me) as the smell really gets to me but we don't have anywhere else to sit - everyone eats at their desks - and I had to keep opening the window today even though it was freezing so I could get through my lunch. I Just don't know what to do anymore, I can't say anything can I? I definitely can't say anything to her. We share a line manager who I get on well with but I don't know if I should raise it with her, or even how to begin ? It's so sensitive. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has notices though.
Ps: I am not a princess or one of those people with a who are always wretching over nothing, I have a strong stomach but it really is bad. WWYD?

PS I am a wretcher but waited until others commented to me before acting.

I'm a wretcher. I'd have to say something to my manager.

I wouldn't raise it with the LM as a "concerned about her health" thing. It's affecting your ability to do your job. It's possibly affecting your colleagues the same way. The LM needs to address that.

I would raise my concerns with your line manager. Maybe the lady isn't aware of her own aroma? Or maybe the issue is related to her disability. If she struggles using the toilet, she might be restricting her fluid intake during the day - which makes the urine she is passing super concentrated and rather potant to the nostrils...

It can't be pleasent sitting in a saturated pad all day either :(

I have 2 children who are both incontinent and i make sure they never smell at all (oldest 11 and produces huge wees of proper stinky mens urine now).There is no real excuse for not using appropriate products etc .
There are some great solutions out there but i guess it depends on whether she is physically able to clean herself properly or needs support.
I would definitely mention it and see what can be done to offer support to improve her personal hygiene but yes a v tricky one .

Here's a legal perspective.

If the smell is so bad that it is affecting your health/ability to do your work, and if colleagues are affected too, that is not something you should be required to put up with for fear of being considered discriminatory.

As soon as your employer is aware of the extent of the problem, and the fact that it is not a temporary issue, they are under a duty to act.

They should have a discussion with your colleague to explain the issue, in case she is not aware of it. They should discuss with her strategies which might help to reduce the problem, to see if this is an unavoidable consequence of her condition. If the employer was my client, I would advise paying for a private consultation with a continency expert/continency nurse. The employer should then consider strategies to address the problem. For example, if frequency of pad changing is an issue, can anything be done to make this easier for your colleague - eg a designated loo, moving her work station nearer to the loos etc? This should all be approached in a sensitive way, but the employer should make your colleague aware that this is not just about her, as the problem is creating an untenable working environment for others, and so needs to be addressed for that reason as well.

If your colleague refuses to engage with this process, or if, despite all of the efforts above, the smell is still unbearable, then, ultimately, your colleague's position may become untenable. After consultation, and probably an independent medical report (if she will consent to it), her employment could be at risk.

I know some will say this is harsh, but I am not suggesting that this would be appropriate if the smell was only slight and/or occasional; looking past that would, IMO, be a reasonable adjustment to accommodate the effects of the employee's disability. There comes a point where an employer is not required to accommodate insurmountable problems which are seriously affecting others, whatever their cause.

For that reason, if the problem really is making your work life so unpleasant that you are considering leaving, you need to tell the employer that, not simply pretend that you are raising the issue only out of concern for your colleague. You would need to point out to your employer that you require them not to "implicate" you as the person who mentioned this.

I cared for my mother, who was doubly incontinent for years near the end of her life. She never smelled bad because I used adult nappies and changed them regularly. If you just use pads, urine can seep out, and will stink.

I think your colleague sounds difficult to deal with, and it is a bit condescending to assume this is related to her disability. If she can get to the toilet on her own, then she can also wash regularly. Of course, with a disability, everything like this is more difficult, and of course your manager will need to be very tactful, but I don't think that someone who is mobile enough to get herself to the toilet will be smelling bad because of her disability. It sounds like she is not using the right incontinence products and/or not washing often enough.

If she can get to the toilet on her own, then she can also wash regularly.

With respect, no. You don't know what her issues are or how nuch discomfort washing in that area 'regularly' would put her through. I am not saying the OP should just put up with it but it is certainly not as simple as this.

Please don't flame me for this, I'm saying it in the nicest way possible.

Disabled people are always saying they want to be treated like everyone else, and not discriminated against. So, if this was an able-bodied person with the same problem (of which there are many), something would be said/done, right? So the same should go for a disabled person. If their behaviour is affecting everyone else, they should be treated by the same standards as everyone else would be. Of course personal circumstances should be taken into account, but if disabled people want to be treated like everyone else, then the 'rules' should apply to them as well.

That's a really hard situation because I would be mortified if someone had noticed I smelled like urine even if I was a feisty personality.
However, it sounds like talking to your manager is just something that needs to be done, awkward as it is! I would suggest a sensitive way for the woman to be approached is not to be told outright that she smells, but that an odour had been noticed around the workplace for some time and it seems to be traced to her.

(So that it's clear the smell is the problem, not her as a target)

ChrisYoungFuckingRocks:

I'm not going to flame you but you have misunderstood. What is meant (naturally) is that they want to be treated the same as others who are not discriminated against, not that they want to be treated as if they have no disability. Obviously it does discriminate against them to treat them as if they are just as able to do something as a non-disabled person is, when their disability clearly rules that out.

Ooh sounds awful.

Sensitive topic but I would speak to your line manager. It's very likely others have noticed.

My aunt has dementia and is doubly incontinent and she never smells. She is washed and cleaned daily and has normal incontinence pads.

This is a hygiene issue. This person is not washing themselves properly. I would speak to the line manager about her care needs at home. She might well be stinting on it or there is a bit of depression there. How does she get into work? Does she drive?

Independence in working is great for disabled people, but some honestly do only think of one thing at a time. Perhaps her care package should be reassessed and her employers can suggest this.

Trifle - I understand what you're saying. I just can't help thinking that, especially if this lady is as feisty as the OP says, if someone else around her had the same problem and it was making her working environment unbearable, she probably would say something about it. So in a way it is discrimination if others feel like they're not allowed to say something about her 'problem'. I'm not trying to sound insensitive, I've cared for disabled people, and I know they'd all be horrified if they were smelly and nobody said anything about it.

ChrisYoungFuckingRocks:

I understand what you are saying, but if it is an aspect of her disability, it isn't the case that she should be treated as if it isn't. Her employers are obligated to make 'reasonable adjustments'. That doesn't mean saying her colleague just has to tolerate it, but not does it mean acting as though she just can't be bothered to wash.

I know many people have said, but i would bring it up with your Line Manager, it is affecting your workplace, and you may not know it - but it may be affecting hers to.

In regular appraisals at my workplace we discuss all the usual, attendance, initiative, communication, and personal appearance and hygiene (granted - this is linked to my workplace) but this could be a way for it to be linked, and a way to help her constructively - not judgmentally.

Hope things work out for you both.

100% line manager. ASAP.

I would speak to the line manager and eat elsewhere. You have a lunch break so just leave the building for that time.

If you were looking for a care home for an elderly relative, and you walked into one that smelled of urine, you'd walk straight out again and never let your relative go there.

There is no need for people with incontinence problems to smell.

So I would absolutely raise it and ask the line manager to ask about care packages, how she is coping at home etc. Does the LM work in the same office? Have they noticed?

As a manager one has responsibility to all staff.
Being disabled is tough, it makes life hard and we need to try and provide as much support as possible.
That does not mean behaviours need to be tolerated that would be unacceptable without the disability. Being smelly needs tackling and the line manager must already be aware and being cowardly.

I've had staff with BO and staff with inappropriate clothing - gentle tact rarely works. Upfront honest conversation is best. "You have a a strong body odour that is making working alongside you unpleasant for others - can we talk about why this might be and see if we can find a way to improve things?" Tears, rants, embarrassed member of staff etc but then (if manager holds firm and remains unmoved/doesn't fill awkward gap) it is usually possible to be frank and look to solution.

I wouldn't dress talking to the LM about it up as concern for the colleague.

1. The LM manager shouldn't be judging you and your motives for speaking to her any more than she should judge the disabled colleague,

and

1. There's a high chance that the LM will use it to dodge the issue. ie: LM comes back to you and says: ''I've spoken to X and she says there's no need for our concern about her welfare, she's fine, thanks, so that''s the end of that''. Then what will you say? You'll be back to square one.

user As a manager I need people who are team players. You can by all means go to your manager and talk about how it affects you. As your manager I would be following out the same steps which would be to contact HR for a needs assessment. I would also be speaking to HR about the need to accommodate the team around this disabled person. You clearly need a separate area you can go to for eating.

All I'm saying is that as a manager I expect my team to be looking to be supportive rather than just complain about each other.

OP I also notice you say your colleague is a "free spirit".

I just wondered if that's code for something...?

What Crumbs said, about how it should be approached.