To think on call firefighters is exploitative

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And to encourage ds (21) to not try to get a job there. They basically want firefighters on call that are paid virtually nothing unless they get called out, and at that point they earn just above min wage.

You have to never be more than 10 mins away from the station for 60 hours a week but no guarantee of any work at all. It's like all the risk of a firefighter with no benefits.

Aibu to just think they should employ people normally and compensate them accordingly?

My Dad was a retained fire fighter. Obviously he had a full time job too. They all do in the area he worked. Mostly trades as that worked with ad hoc call outs. He loved it and it topped up the family income. It was mostly hard work for my Mum who had to hold the fort. So yes you are being unreasonable. It isn't expected to be a main source of income as usually retainers are used in areas where there aren't enough call outs for full time fire fighters. I hope he enjoys it and finds it fulfilling .

The person I mentioned upthread lives in a largeish town on the edge of a very large northern city. As well as a large population, there are also lots of businesses and industrial areas and major motorways - they spend more time dealing with road accidents than fighting property fires.

A lot of time he is at home with their DCs who are just about at the age where they can be left for an hour or two, but his retired parents live round the corner and his wife works shifts so he does some of his on call shifts when she's not at work. A bit of a co-ordination exercise at times but they manage.

Retained firefighters have been around for a very long time (at least 40 years afaik) in different areas. I grew up in Oxfordshire and the station in our very small town was all retained, and my current town in Worcs is the same. The firefighters all have jobs, and I think some employers agree to let them run out if needed. Same with the community first responder who looks after you until the ambulance can get here from the nearest city.
Its a great system imo

Slarti. It's nothing to do with zero hours contracts. It has been going on for years. It would be ridiculous to have full time firefighters in areas where there are only a few call outs. As we all know the public services are crippled financially. It's a really popular job in my Dad's area and people stick with it so I can't think that they feel taken advantage of. Unlike nursing which is generally pitifully paid and struggles to attract and keep candidates AND they have to pay for their own training now. My Mum is a nurse and I have to say that I feel far more strongly about her rates of pay and working hours than I do about my Dads. He had a good call out rate and got paid for drill nights and training.

Personally I prefer my firefighters to be sitting at the fire station, 20 seconds away from the fire engine and literally doing nothing except waiting for the call if my house in on fire.

Which is exactly as it is in towns and cities. In very remote areas though there might be months or years between fires - makes no sense to have people paid a full time salary for doing nothing. Also agree though that they should be paid the correct hourly rate when they are on work - so from the moment the pager/mobile goes off to the moment they arrive back at the fire station they get the average rate of a full-time firefighter. Same for any hours they are required to do for training/maintenance. Being paid a small amount to sit in your house and be on call is reasonable though.

Dad was also a first responder when he retired.

They are so bloody brave...it infuriates me when I hear that they have to take a second job to make decent living.

It is just like doing St John's Ambulance or being s Special Constable really - we live abroad and over 95% of fire fighters are volunteers and always have been. It works really well - employers are seen as socially responsible if they employ volunteer fire fighters and obviously let them go to call outs. There are volunteer first responders too who are called to emergencies where CPR is needed if they happen within a 5km radius, and their volunteer role is to perform CPR until the ambulance arrives. Also only paid when actually called out.

It isn't really a job, that's the thing. Its a volunteer position open to those with understanding employers which some people do purely because they are public spirited, and others partly for the social side and the fact looks good on their CV and gives them a better chance to move into a paid role.

If you want to get a real bee in your bonnet about something consider the Lifeboat crews - they get paid NOTHING and risk their lives to rescue others in very similar "call out" circumstances.

I think this is relatively common in rural areas where there isn't a "full time" demand for a fire service. Our local fire brigade are all reservists. They have day jobs (our village butcher is one, as is our postman. When I tell friends in London this, they think it's hilarious) in the local area so the requirement to be no more than 15 minutes from the fire station when on call isn't too difficult and I wouldn't call it exploitative. Like somebody said above, around here it's less fighting fires and mostly traffic accidents, farm incidents and helping rounding up escaped livestock.

My pre teen DD is a member of the volunteer firefighters where we live - they recruit from 9 years old and start training in a fun way, there is a massive social side they are paid in pizza and they are trained in first aid - from age 12 the training is extensive - and how to respond in different emergency situations such as water / frozen water emergencies as well as fires. From 12 they start to learn how to use the equipment on the fire engines.

From 16 they can start to do duties like responding to minor floods and stewarding parades etc. From 18 they take on full volunteer responsibilities, they do a really wide range of things including fighting fires and attending rural traffic accidents. Lots of rural young people do it here.

Cockatoo, honestly you have the wrong end of the stick. They DO earn a good wage. My Dad and all his mates had/have well paid jobs. They CHOOSE to do this in addition and are fairly compensated. As I said there are usually more candidates than jobs. Yes they sometimes placed themselves in dangerous positions for which I am grateful but they also spent an awful lot of time rescuing cows from ditches.

Isn't this like the lifeboats? Or special constables? It's not meant to be a job, it's a semi-volunteer position.

So for your AIBU, yes YANBU to encourage your DS to get an actual job rather than a hobby/ volunteer position if he needs to be earning.

I can well believe there is a debate to be had about whether the fire service is overusing retained firefighters.

I know a few firefighters locally, they have jobs (full time salaried) with one station and go on call with others, they want to do it. They wouldn't entertain just being on call though, that really is considered volunteering, similar to that of the Lifeboat.

How about the Police force? they are looking for recruits and pay well?

Added to which many areas are strong arming firefighters into being first responders so that if you have a heart attack or fall and gash your leg and instead of an ambulance you may well get a fire engine with 4 firefighters covered in crap from the last job they went to and were on their way back from. Of course while they are sorting out your leg an RTC or persons reported house fire 2 miles down the road goes unattended for even longer.
It is all about desperately trying to keep up the same service with far less resources and money. Nothing else.

Get your DS on Twitter and doing some research if he's keen to be a firefighter. Leicestershire Fire & Humberside Fire are both recruiting for full-time firefighter this month. Other services will be doing so soon as they are all being hit by ageing profiles having not recruited for many years. (Cheshire comes to mind?)

With regard to retained role you would not 'lose a lot in travel & getting ready'. If you can't get there asap you're not going to get taken on.

Sorry to burst your bubble but it's NOT just in rural areas.

And children of the stones has it right also

I know 2 retained fire fighters - they both have full time jobs and do it as a volunteering sideline, and certainly not for the money which is negligible.

I agree with pp, I think of being retained firefighter is similar to being a police special. Police specials are expected to work for a minimum of 16 hours a month for free and what they deal with could be difficult and dangerous too. I've read in the past that some forces have required their applicants to have worked as specials for a minimum length of time, the justification being that the applicant has experience and knows what they are getting into, the obvious by product is that the police end up with lots of volunteers to bolster their numbers.

This isn’t about being retained or volunteer fire fighters in rural areas. It’s about being on call at home, for a small-ish annual payment and extra if they get called out.

In our area (big population, big town on edge of major city) they have to be able to get in within 5 minutes. Effectively they are sitting around at home, or out and about very locally (within one mile of Fire Station) while on call. I don’t know about the ins and outs and suspect it was to save money, but I do know at least one fire fighter who went from full time long standing to this arrangement by choice.

Obviously I don’t know if he now earns less than he previously did, but he still has a similar lifestyle to previously (holidays, days out, bikes and stuff for him and DSs) so maybe not a huge financial hit.

I think it's more a position to have on top of a regular job.

As for not being in the best frame of mind if you're on call whilst sleeping, have you ever been in an ambulance station? There are beds, couches and TVs. People have to sleep! I'd rather have someone who was well rested responding to my emergency than someone who'd been up all night and was knackered!

I envy the ambulance staff and firefighters who get to sleep on nights. Us plod don't

they seem to like recruiting young guys

You say this like there's something a bit unreasonable about this. Of course they're going to want young, fit, keen people who may be looking at it as a full time career choice. Why would they want a load of old duffers? It's not Dad's Army

I work for the police in in our force's last recruitment drive boat loads of specials got full time positions so it's definitely a way in if he's serious about a career with the brigade. It also gives you an insight into the job so you can decide if it is indeed for you without making a massive commitment. I feel a bit sorry for external recruits as some of them are genuinely clueless. We've had people quit already apparently as they were so shocked. And even some who didn't know you had to work nights!

If that's his ambition he should grab this opportunity with both hands. I'd be proud if he was my son

Where we live the fire service is at least 90% retained firemen, most with a full-time job alongside their retained position. They get a decent payment for retention, plus pension and benefits on top of that.

My personal trainer is an on-call firefighter.

He earns enough with what his clients pay him