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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not pay this council tax bill?

52 replies

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 16/03/2017 10:49

I'm an accidental landlord - we lived in a 1-bed flat and when I got pregnant with my first we obviously needed somewhere bigger. If I sold I'd be in negative equity so I rented the flat out and we rented elsewhere.

I've had a few tenants in over the 4 years and had a lady in before my current tenant. She was looking for a temporary home as she'd sold her house and hadn't found another house to live in yet. So we agreed to a 6 month contract with 1 month rolling thereafter.

I knew when she first moved in that she was overlapping on moving out her old home by about a week so she could clean, get things in storage etc. However there were delays on her chain so she didn't actually occupy the flat until 3 weeks after her tenancy start date.

She was an OK tenant. Only problems I had was she'd complain about non-issues or issues I could do nothing about (like slugs coming into the garden) and she also painted the kitchen without permission then tried to charge me £35 for the cost of paint (I refused).

She found a house to buy quicker than expected and because it was empty she was able to exchange and move in very quickly. As a result she asked if she could end the tenancy 3 months early with 5 days notice. TBH it wasn't ideal for me, I like to have 4 weeks notice stipulated in the contract to find a new tenant, get paperwork in order etc, but I didn't wanna be a dick about it so I agreed. I returned her full deposit in 2 weeks and had a new tenant in 4 weeks after she left. I didn't charge her rent for any days after she left, and of course covered the council tax and bills in the time between her moving out and new tenant moving in. When I was cleaning up in the flat one day an officer from TV licensing called round - she hadn't paid her TV license in the 3 months of being there. I explained she no longer lived here and they said they'd just write it off.

That was some months ago. I got a call from her this morning asking for my new address. When I asked why she said she was giving it to the council to send me a council tax bill. I said I had paid the council tax between her leaving and new tenant moving in, and she said "no it's for the first 3 weeks of my tenancy when I wasn't occupying the flat" Confused. I said sorry but it's up to her to pay that. She got really upset and said she can't afford it (it's £90) as she's just had to pay for the rest of the tenancy upfront - she hadn't paid any of the 3 months council tax while she was there, and paid it all yesterday minus the first 3 weeks. She said if I didn't pay she wouldn't be able to pay a vets fee for her sick dog and he'll die. They're threatening her with the magistrates court. I said sorry no, and actually because I allowed her only 5 days notice she has already saved on a nearly month's council tax bill (which I covered) which I didn't have to agree to. I didn't mention the tv license issue. She thinks I should pay it as she wasn't physically living there in that time.

I rang the council to check what they know, and they said she is disputing living in the flat for the first 3 weeks, and if that's true that I'm responsible for the bill. I've emailed over a copy of the tenancy agreement she signed as proof and waiting to hear back.

Thing is, I am on maternity leave with no 2 so not exactly rolling in it. £90 is a lot and I could do really without paying it. Legally it's her bill to pay but I feel quite bad that I've said no, especially when her dog is unwell (if she's telling the truth). AIBU to stick to my guns and refuse to pay the £90?

OP posts:
happy2bhomely · 16/03/2017 11:40

A very long time ago I rented a flat. I was a single parent claiming HB and CTB. I had a one year contract.

My landlord then had to sell. He gave me my notice and I approached the council who told me that they couldn't help me until I had an eviction notice from the courts.

This did not please my landlord (understandably) and I remained in the property for an extra 8 weeks while he went to court. If I had left the council would have considered that I had made myself intentionally homeless.

The council did not pay any rent or council tax in those 8 weeks because I couldn't claim any help because my tenancy had ended and without a new one, they wouldn't accept my claim, but I couldn't leave either.

I had to pay it.

Because of my circumstances, they let me pay it off weekly. Perhaps your tenant can offer to pay it in instalments. I can't believe she is disputing that it is her debt to pay.

jay55 · 16/03/2017 11:50

As long as the tenancy is dated before the three weeks then you are fine.

Zaphodsotherhead · 16/03/2017 11:54

The frogs will eat the slugs. You're good.

SusannahL · 16/03/2017 11:55

Op, you definitely are not liable for this council tax.

Also, I wouldn't believe the 'sick dog' tale for one moment.

She is trying to tug on your heartstrings.

specialsubject · 16/03/2017 11:56

no need to apologise, only the Guardian-swallowers on MN think that accommodation should be free. However you aren't an accidental landlord, no such thing!

back to the point - her bill. Councils do sometimes try to make the landlord pay if the tenant has done a runner, although a recent judgement has stuffed that. As you don't have access to the property once the tenancy starts, why should you pay the council tax?

My council is ignoring this, and yours may do as well because it is easier to chase a landlord than a disappeared tenant and they like to minimise work. The tenancy agreement should do it, but don't give up.

As she keeps a dog she clearly has spare cash. Write to the council reminding them that it is her bill and referring to the judgement. Also look out for debt collector letters - if any of those turn up, contact th agency and make it clear that that they are not to bother your new tenant or you, but to go after the real debtor.

she needs to pay or have her CCJs as that will make it harder for her to cheat others. With this attitude she could rent somewhere else and then not pay at all, and someone else with bills to pay could be stuck with a freeloader for up to a year.

yes - voice of experience....

VoodooSexDoll · 16/03/2017 11:58

You're a very kind landlady! Its her bill tho and her responsibility so dont fall for sob stories!

The council if she speaks to them will no doubt let her pay it off in instalments as will the vets. All she has to do is speak to them and explain her situation!

Not your problem OP!

LRDtheFeministDragon · 16/03/2017 11:58

WTF? Cheeky, cheeky fucker.

bloodyfuming9 · 16/03/2017 12:01

YANBU about the council tax bill. You are wonderful for allowing her to only give you 5 days notice!I don't understand why you don't let the flat out at a proper market rent though? There are always other costs that come up that you should cover by receiving a proper rent for the property.
Big maintenance bills can be staggering- replacing boiler, updating, repainting internally and externally, repointing (extortionately expensive)routine replacement and repairs etc etc etc

thecatneuterer · 16/03/2017 12:07

Big maintenance bills can be staggering

You're not wrong. I've been a LL for over 20 years. My average maintenance bill per house is £3000 a year. Last year it was nearer £6000. There are a hell of a lot more costs than just covering the mortgage.

harderandharder2breathe · 16/03/2017 12:25

Yanbu

She is responsible for all bills from the start of her tenancy, and the fact that she's only just paid 3 months of council tax and never paid tv license suggests she's a cheeky fucker

You've been more than generous letting her only give 5 days notice

Noodoodle · 16/03/2017 13:31

Date tenancy started from (on agreement) is the date she is liable from, regardless of how long she took to move in. End of. Council wouldn't let someone sign up and not pay rent or ct for three weeks because they hadn't got their shit together and moved in if it was one of theirs, why should you?

ZombieApocalips · 16/03/2017 13:38

Yanbu.

She's conveniently forgotten the 5 days notice that you gave her. Don't feel guilty.

channing55 · 16/03/2017 13:44

Hope you are paying tax on your rental income to HMRC? Also, you are not an "accidental" landlord. You didn't fall over and accidentally start renting out your flat. It was a conscious decision on your part.

Sisinisawa · 16/03/2017 14:07

Channing that phrase means the person didn't intend to be a landlord but was forced by circumstances. It's a recognised phrase.

sopsmum · 16/03/2017 14:15

Why wouldn't the op be paying any tax due channing? What a strange comment.

Pemba · 16/03/2017 15:26

I have moved many times over the years and often had overlaps with renting/owning 2 properties at once for a week or 2. I have always been able to get some sort of discount on Council Tax because of this, I thought it was normal. I am talking different councils across the country. Same applies to my grown DCs.

Usually if you are not actually living there, Council Tax has been not chargeable. Landlords have not been liable for it either, as far as I am aware. What the councils want to know is was it furnished at the time? If you rented it out furnished it would still be due, and that would be down to the tenant to pay. Also there is a limit on the number of days per financial year that a property is allowed to be non-chargeable, so if another tenant/owner has already used this up, you're out of luck!

I do know that each council has different rules though, and apparently many are getting less generous on this, but surely worth querying with them?

As for the TV licence, that's really nothing to do with you. Quite possibly she didn't bother watching live TV during her time at your flat, as many people don't nowadays, and therefore didn't need a licence anyway. I wouldn't get involved.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 16/03/2017 15:42

Hope you are paying tax on your rental income to HMRC? Also, you are not an "accidental" landlord. You didn't fall over and accidentally start renting out your flat. It was a conscious decision on your part.

Hmm

It's tiresome comments like that which led me to post apologetic comments in my OP as for some reason people are itching to hate LLs. Agree with a PP - accidental landlord is a recognised phrase. You're welcome to google it. Also, why wouldn't I be paying tax on my rental income?? What a strange assumption.

bloody I don't make money generally because I don't need it and it means I have a lot of people biting my hand off to live there so I can be choosy about who rents (I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying that). Luckily the repairs have been minimal as it's a modern small flag but I have a small amount of savings set aside just in case anything goes wrong

OP posts:
CherryChasingDotMuncher · 16/03/2017 15:45

Pemba as flat is fully furnished i only get 10% discount on council tax whilst it's unoccupied. I've left the TV license issue, they wrote the debt off anyway, I know she did have a TV though!

OP posts:
Pemba · 16/03/2017 15:56

Then as it was let furnished and she had a tenancy agreement in place at the time, she would be liable. Too bad for her, but you have already been generous allowing her to give just 5 days notice.

Owning a TV doesn't mean you are watching live TV, many people now use it just for watching stuff like Netflix, playing DVDs, gaming etc. Conversely, you could quite easily be watching live TV on a laptop, and would then need a licence.

TheProblemOfSusan · 16/03/2017 16:52

I can be quite disparaging about poor landlords who treat tenants badly, and also dislike that some people are purposefully making it hard for others to buy their own property by buying more than they need and then renting them out. But that's a political issue I have with a badly regulated housing market, not to do with individuals who are trying to get through life as best they can.

In this particular situation, you are most definitely not being unreasonable, and your former tenant is delusional. Of course it's her bill to pay. That's how it works. She's paying rent, she has sole use of the property, doesn't matter if she's moved in or not.

Speaking as a tenant, in this case I think a small rent increase to cover property maintenance might be a good idea - I want my landlords to be able to quickly repair things though I do like the idea of below market rent a lot!!

Backt0Black · 16/03/2017 17:07

Supply a copy of the tenancy agreement to the council. Just been through a similar fight from the side of the tenant.

Landlord terminated early on us (very long tale - theres a thread if you're bored) re-let the property told new tenants c-tax all sorted until end of our tenancy. (of course new tenant was delighted!) CTax lot seemed to think the paper copy of the tenancy agreement was the holy grail and irrefutable.... so should sort your issue, as 'live' tenant had material interest and option to occupy.

From my side wrote to MP who leaned on c-tax them to visit the property to see it had been re-let and that out tenancy HAD been severed. And... after a lot of threats and stress had the £2000 liability switched to the right tenant, and an apology from the council oh wait they didn't apologise

point is they will largely take any paperwork on face value.

Monkeymarbles · 16/03/2017 17:20

As a complete aside I'm grumpy that everywhere else seems to do 10% discretionary - I've just overlapped properties by a month and had to pay full council tax on both. I was tempted to say I was living in one and husband in the other to claim 25% discount but it's fraud init.
As you were...

RenterNomad · 16/03/2017 18:28

If she was paying rent and had use of the property, she was also liable for council tax. If you had been living there so she couldn't occupy the space, it would be an entirely different matter (and a breach of her tenancy), but that doesn't seem to have been the case! Stress that she had "quiet enjoyment" of the property from x date, and that's all you need to worry about!

JamDonutsRule · 16/03/2017 19:36

I agree she sounds like a total chancer! The council will make her pay the bill.

LeninaCrowne · 16/03/2017 19:43

I call chancer!

If may have been paying council tax on another property during those 3 weeks, even so she needs to sort it out between the councils, and not pass the bill onto you.

Did she have permission for the dog?

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