To not understand reborn dolls (trigger warning)

[FairytalesAreBullshit]

This is something that has been on my mind for a while, plus it seems to be growing in popularity.

I've had my share of losses, so I understand the pain and grief, one was quite late too but not at a gestation to be a still birth.

Someone I know got pregnant, told the world, then it turned out to be a chemical pregnancy. I supported her saying how crap it was, all the usual supportive stuff. A few months later she was showing pictures of these reborn dolls and didn't know which one to get. If still pregnant she would have been about 12 weeks.

She got this doll, went shopping for baby clothes, a Moses basket, pushchair. I think even her DH was a bit as the Dr said they would likely fall pregnant again no issue, usual statistics, nothing to worry about.

On IG there's loads of photos of this doll, nappy changes, new outfits every day. It's like it's a living thing.

I know we all grieve differently, I could understand if it was a later loss, you'd know the sex, you could pick out a name, like we did.

I feel horrible for not understanding the craze where some women who just want the doll not the baby, have them made to order. They look like the real thing.

There's only so many times you can go so cute, etc, kind of supporting the whole idea, when my experience in this area was to move on if that makes sense. Go through all the stages of grief, not just me but DH too as men don't really get regarded when it comes to pregnancy loss, it's usually a woman's thing.

Can someone explain it? Am I horrible for not understanding it?

I do think you've got a point to be concerned about your friend, if she is "stuck", or if she is unable to see she is distressing her DH.

Also think that it's valid if seeing them on IG upsets you/your DH. Switch off the feed.

It's just how you balance different people's needs/experiences- all valid. But sometimes difficult from those experiences to co-exist in the same space.

lagato your post about having somewhere for the love to go is very moving, and explains a lot about how I feel about my own loss. I might give Guernica a read.

I find it weird as hell, TBH.

These people need help. I think ignoring it and saying, "It's just the way they grieve" is to shove the problem under the carpet. There is an underlying issue that needs to be addressed.

I agree @SuperBeagle

This doesn't seem like a healthy way of dealing with a loss. Not at such an early stage and not to make the doll such a part of your life for so long.

I think your friend needs supporting but at some point, someone close to her may need to suggest she has professional help to let go.

I am fortunately speaking out of ignorance having only lost a 4 week pregnancy and this was disappointing as opposed to upsetting.

As a parent, I can only imagine the grief of losing a child but sympathy and concern or belief that someone isn't dealing with their emotions are not mutually exclusive.

When I lost a baby I had a physical ache in my arms because I could not hold them. I spent hours holding a cushion to ease that. So I think I understand the doll. Bless her...and everyone who has suffered such a loss.

I'm sorry for those who have had losses Guernica sounds like a good place to start.

Part of the problem or not problem but issue, is if you ask for more information you get the same stock answer which is like a justification. Friends don't need a justification, they want the best for her, OK if this reborn works, but at the same time there's things that need addressing. You can't get past the barrier, which realistically is this reborn and the attachment. If you queried it you were/are pretty much shut down.

After the latest loss, I was part of a due date club, they were lovely people so wanted to keep talking. Also had a relative or two pregnant. Back then if we got a call saying baby had been born, or there was an update on the group, I'd go into the spare room and organise things, applying my energy in a way that helped some how.

I'll be the first to say that through the losses, the tests which were inconclusive, I didn't like myself looking back. New of a family member or friend getting pregnant would dissolve me to tears. I'd have really negative emotions, a bit like this is relatives 3rd baby, surely it'd be fair for me to have 1. Even after DS was born, it still hurt but to a lesser degree, that it was so easy for some.

I've spoke to people going through treatment etc, they've admitted to similar feelings. That they'd look at families in social situations, where the Mum was smacking and screaming at her children. The thought was usually, I wish I could cuddle the traumatised child and show them love, hypothetically of course.

So whilst people react differently, there seemed to be an agreement that all of a sudden, when getting pregnant wasn't that easy, every woman appeared to be pregnant, or pushing a newborn. Your radar heightened to pick up parents behaving in away you believed you wouldn't. How much you have to give, how perfect your situation is.

So a varied bag of experience of many situations.

The book does sound really good. Thank you.

I have complex PTSD, and it is very much related to being "stuck" all the emotion of an event can be experienced and it is like you are stuck, it does not allow you to move on, it does not allow you to live your life fully. It is an awful thing to have, I am working very hard to overcome this. I have only given a snippet of course of what it is like.

I have also had so many miscarriages, more early than late, it is beyond heartbreaking, hormones don't help you make sense of things, when it is happening because there is often no way to explain what has happened, it was a stick saying pregnant and then you are not, no body can tell you why. there is just no sense to be had. I agree everyone is always pregnant around me, as I'm still TTC and that initself is hard (7 loses in 18 months, one later mc and then no BFP for 8 now) I couldn't (lots of therapy has helped me cope better with this aspect of my PTSD) walk to the local shop because I would break down in tears if I saw a tiny baby, or pregnant woman at times all my feelings of when it happened come back, the fear is there the emotional pain, I literally in my mind re-live it, all in an instant it is traumatic you want the pain to go away, I want the pain to go away, of course I do and I at times have sat and cried and cried and begged for something anything to take this pain away. You can't run from grief, you just learn how to live alongside it.

So I can imagine how this might on the surface seem to help. someone sees this they think it will help, it then does help, it takes a bit of that pain away, gives a focus, they have all this love all this grief and nowhere for it to go, then they do and slowly they start to loose touch with what actually has happened. But it will still be there your still stuck in that grief. As the person in it your never going to accept it is not helping you because something like this can give the illusion of helping, i can imagine it makes a little bit of that pain go away. Something I'm sure many people have begged to happen whilst going through this.

It's all very heartbreaking, none of it is fair but I would be very very worried about your friend, and I'm just so sorry for those who have to go through this

It's just somewhere for the love to go.

That's such a lovely way of putting it, LaGatoteca. I understand that. Like, there's a hole in your life and you need something to fill it. I don't think it's any stranger than putting flowers on a gravestone. It's just less socially acceptable.

I think when something huge and incomprehensible happens, sometimes you do need to go over and over and over it again until you're able to contain it and understand it. It's why children who've experienced trauma will re-enact their traumas over and over and over again until they can assimilate that experience into their daily lives. It's why when something awful happens you sometimes have the urge to tell people about it over and over. It's a way of helping you process it. If you tell the story enough times, it might sink in. It's why we need photographs of people we've lost. It's why therapists sometimes ask you to write letters to people who are dead.

Holding and caring for a doll is no different, really, to talking to a partner who's died, or buying flowers to put on their grave, or going somewhere significant on their birthday. It's not getting stuck. It's a way of processing that grief, coming to terms with it and finally being able to let it go.

GreyStars Firstly I'm sorry about the PTSD & the losses. I've had quite a few, I could own shares in Clearblue or First response. I'll hold my hand up to taking tests apart, that kind of thing, it truly is harrowing.

Are you having fertility tx at all? I made sure I knew all about the medical side of things, as I don't know your experience of the EPAU & miscarriage services, but even with my DD it was hard going, she's 6. I read up on vitamins, read up on causes. If you can access bloods, check your TSH, or ask your GP to run a TSH screen plus the enhanced one. It turns out even being bordering with hypothyroidism can have an impact. Also with your hormones, get your prolactin tested, as that can throw things off.

The stage you're at, I'm sure your GP or gynae shouldn't mind referring you to a specialist centre, in the South I think it's St Mary's, not sure about up North. A frustrating thing for me in the gap between DS & DD (so there is hope) was you read of people having say ISCI, they'd have extra progesterone support that's a pessary, they have steroids, plus clexane which is a strong blood thinner. You can pay privately say Harley Street, but the cost is about £200 for first consult, then tests, then a follow up. So say for 3 cycles of tx from start to finish, maybe just with clomid is at least £1000.

I've got a friend who is under St Mary's and the treatment is amazing. In the Midlands at Coventry you have Professor Siobhan Quenby who does the NK Cell testing at £200. Friends that have been there have had the first appointment free, plus a load of tests including a dye test awake. But if you do have these NK Cells, I believe they're treated with low dose steroids, as it's a bit like an autoimmune response.

I hope you're getting adequate support with the PTSD, I merely had a booklet that tells you what you already know, then the option of counselling if you want it.

I wish I had the courage to post earlier, as I had a lot of the Pregnacare Conception tablets, which are meant to be a formula to use vitamins to help sustain pregnancy. I think they're out of date now. I think some forums on mc & fertility have information on your own private vitamin protocol, but you'll be rattling with tablets. I know B6 is important as it regulates hormones, CQ10 does something, B12 I believe is similar to B6, one of the smells a bit like marmite. Those were the main ones I took with Omega 3,6 & 9. Although I can't remember the reasoning. Then zinc for your OH to enhance sperm.

I do have a book or books on miscarriages, one was really helpful, assisting you understand. I don't mind posting them out to you free if I can find them, as it'd be great to help someone. If not I'll find the book on Amazon and pay it forward if you like, as I really want to help.

A big thing for me was accepting I was not the nicest of people to be around before DS. You try and keep a straight face, but coming from a large family, someone always seems to have happy news to share. If I was with relatives like parents or grandparents, they pretty much knew I was going to cry. I have an elderly relative who had to adopt, I have an aunt who conceived ok first time then needed clomid, I was like my great aunt, everyone was falling pregnant and something you worried about in early adulthood, turned out not to be an issue as I couldn't do it naturally.

For my sisters and cousins, they just had to look down a mans pants and get pregnant.

If I can figure out how you PM on the app I can send a few links. I know it's hard, but try not to lose hope. I know that's easier said than done. It this will make you smile, obviously we have to go through invasive testing, my DH actually felt the sperm test was a violation. There's us women, legs in styrupps etc.

Wishing you all the best.

You could possibly speak to your GP about having progesterone supplements to see if they'll help. Do you use OPK's as it's a bit of a myth we ovulate CD14, it can vary vastly, but 12 days after ovulationyou should be seeing the BFP. I know they do the CD21 test, but if you don't ovulate on CD14 it's redundant.

If I can help, even for someone to talk to, please feel free to messGe me. I really want to help with the book at least.

What does she do with the doll when/if she gets pregnant again?
Does she shove it in the attic, or bury it?
I'm not being flippant or disrespecting her loss, but I really wonder.

I really want one

I love the idea of this permanent baby that never grows that I could have a little cuddle with when feeling really broody

But I wouldn't change the nappy or feed it pretend bottles of milk. I wouldn't take it out of the house in a pram either

I might get a second hand Moses basket for a few pennies as it's somewhere to keep it where it isn't going to get broken and I would change the outfit every now and then too. Purely because I want to

Thank you for saying that @kali110 I thought that was pretty rude of her to say too . For some reason dolls are so judged in a way a teddy or trainset will never be. Very odd.

Thank you Fairy one thing that I have been lucky with throughout, this, lets call it "journey" (because I have to believe I will one day make it to a labour ward) is that I have an incredibly supportive partner and my local services, GP etc have been truly amazing. But it has not been easy and I'm exhausted, jobless and not the same person I was before. The innocence of pregnancy is lost for me forever but I can focus on holding a wriggly baby, I have too.

I'd just another BFN this morning when I posted this morning, all a bit raw but am feeling more positive now. Am also super hormonal and desperately trying not to overthink it, it is too early I am stupid for testing I should just pee on £5 notes!

I use every gadget available, queen of the OPK (well monitor) and backups I am a 28 cycle bang on CD14 ovulate, also feel it, apart from once in three years. I have had seven miscarriages, likely more as I didn't test for six months out of fear but I felt "different" on three other occasions.

I have a medical condition that 90% of people with that who have problems seem to have high fertility) My consultant automatically assumed high fertility, prescribed what I would need and sent me for tests to confirm but I miscarried on my way home that time my last few have been chemical and I've tested and then lost hours later, that in some way feels more cruel as I don't even get to try some of things that could help.

I receive therapy via my miscarriage clinic, I do feel lucky to have so much love and support in my life.

I'm hoping this time, this month it finally works and we get to try all the things, this month I've even eaten pineapples I know it's likely a myth but you got to try, but I also was able to discuss taking more asprin as apparently 150 can be better for some, so another tablet to add to my bucket load! Rattle rattle

Just in case others looking in and see your post, which is a great source of information, is that there is a specialist clinic in Coventry, im down south but my consultant knows the doctor at Coventry and a great book called "is my body baby friendly"

The feeling of needing to do something is sometimes overwhelming and these things certainly do help, the lack of knowing why is frustrating.

The lack of acknowledgment that women going through this need real medical and mental health help makes me very very angry.

These posts although i appreciate I have somewhat derailed and I'm so sorry for that but wanted to reply, help as it makes you realise you are not alone. At times I have felt so very alone in my grief, posts like these help because it happens far more than anyone unless directly involved realises. I heard of a lady who had 19 starting late 30's she is now a mummy, that is the hope I focus on. Amazing strength of character but it can happen, in my case because they can't say why, I have to just keep going and hope that next time is the time.

It's just very very heartbreaking and for everyone going through it or has been through it, but you have to work with the grief not hide from it and all that love I have to give I'm trying to use on me, because then when it does happen I will be the best version I can be of myself for the sake of my wriggly baby.

Just one thing on the dolls, you want to get one to play dolls with, fair enough go for it. I'm not going to judge someone for just wanting one, I have a stuffed bear I love and adore who I have a little chat with in the mornings.

But to replace a lost baby with one, and again not being judgmental is a cause for concern in my view, because there is a very real danger of avoiding reality because it takes away a bit of the pain, it creates an illusion of safety and that could leave a very vulnerable person not being able to grieve properly, not getting the help they need and not being able to move forward with their lives and that is a very big cause for concern IMO.

Agree Greystars, think a lot of women have a stuffed animal that represents a lost child. And the term "fur baby" for pets is sometimes true in more ways than one. A friend of mine, had a miscarriage, got a puppy, dealt with things via love for the dog and then had a baby a couple of years later.

I think it's right to express concern for a friend who is struggling. But a doll isn't in itself an indication of struggling. I would need a sense of that independent of the doll, and independent of any factor like the doll upsets me/reminds me of my own losses.

I don't think it is really that unusual. When dogs have a loss, or a phantom pregnancy, they sometimes adopt a teddy as their child, sleep beside it, guard it and love it as their own. Dogs are sentient beings, they understand that the teddy isn't a puppy, but their hormones drive them to a kind of distraction.

However I also understand the difficult women who have had a late pregnancy loss can have acknowledging a very early loss. It's nothing to be proud of, but it seems quite natural that someone who has carried a baby to the late second or third trimester feels their grief trumps that of someone who hasn't reached the end of the first. I think that is something that would only change after a long time when the pain has had a chance to heal - as much as it ever can, anyway.

later pregnancy loss must be awful, I have never been through it, I hope it never happens to me, I don't think I would survive it.

Early pregnancy loss can lead IMO to more chance of disassociation which makes me worry more for this lady. I had one a bit before 12 weeks, it was traumatic. I had hours of pain, and what I was confronted with was my baby but did not look anything like a baby (obviously) my baby was gone and all I had to ever prove they ever existed was a stick and memories of vomiting a lot. The one person outside my mum and partner I told about it because I was finding it so hard, had been pregnant once, had a baby which was raised into a nice human being. They said some things that made me feel so unjustified to feel the way I did, I went into a self flogging mode and felt it was all my fault and that my baby didn't matter.

It is very easy to disassociate from this for some women, pretend it never happened, project feelings onto something else, and to the extent described in the OP that is worrying.

it's just heartbreaking to think this person might need help and doesn't know how to access it. If this was me, I'd want someone to help me.

It just makes me feel so very very sad for her.

I'm going to majorly out myself now but I am a professional reborn artist and have been for 4 years - while I am aware that some people use them to help deal with a loss, in my 4 years I've yet to encounter a customer who does this - 98% of reborn collectors are just that - collectors - there are different sculpting artists, painting artists, painting styles and techniques, mediums (materials like vinyl, clay, wax, silicone) and limited edition dolls (some of which end up like the 'Penny black stamp' of the doll world).

All the customers I have dealt with just collect based on these elements, or just collect ones they like, or just like to collect artwork and see them as a division of art - a LOT of work goes into them (hence the high price). But this side is never really portrayed to the public, as, well, it's not very newsworthy or interesting

I do totally get why people find them unsettling though, anything with has a hyper-real 'uncanny' look and feel to it does tend to unsettle people. And it's never the intention of an artist to cause distress to people who have suffered infant loss

iprocrastinate that's really interesting as it is portrayed as a coping mechanism, not something people collect.

I wouldn't want one but that is likely because of what I've experienced and how I have quite a negative view of them, plus I've never really liked dolls, much more a soft animal lover :)

But I do respect the amount of work that must go into them, from an artistic point of view I admire that talent, and actually find the craftermanship behind them quite fascinating. Especially as I can't even seem to make the stuffed rabbit that I'm trying to make look anything more than a big potato with a head

GreyStars if it's any consolation I can't make stuffed animals to save my life! And the artistry behind it is what drew me in and now I'm obsessed with painting techniques new ways of working with the paints I was fascinated by it before I started learning how it all works - I'm the first to admit that my job is really strange, and my studio looks really bizarre