To wonder what Teresa May's plans for secondary moderns are

[Neverthelessshepersisted]

That's it really.
I am a bit disappointed with her tbh.

Graphista I had Boris in mind when I said privileged toff. Don't think anyone can argue that he earned his place in politics entirely on merit.

Jack's in agree a third way can be found. Some people are so entrenched. The issue I have is that many pupils can excel in maths or English but not both, like me so they wouldn't pass test. I also couldn't learn maths the conventional way so new thinking needed. So I needed school that can support my strengths and helped weakness. People argue sec moderns can't do this I don't necessarily see dd as brighter than me(yet) but I can see she learns in conventional way and is good all-rounder I see grammar for those like her

"If a pupil/student is a bit of problem they can be expelled and there's only one place to go – local Comp or Secondary Modern and they can't throw anyone out. "

Wrong on two counts. Grammar schools can't expel for "being a bit of a problem" -and secondary moderns and comprehensives can expel.

Noble I have linked loads of various articles on loads of such threads and find they already ignored. For instance on a few threads now after being asked too I have posted links and out of this e tomes I have been totally ignored many times and recently one article that was Opinon piece was picked up on some no, do your own googling (petulant)

I've looked at your links upthread, they're not in favour of expanding selection, so don't do the job. The guy who wrote the opinion piece is a journalist not an education professional, and Sir Michael Wilshaw is against selection.

Actually, now I think about it, Rachel de Souza has been talking about selection - she's the one who wants to open grammar schools that only accept poor kids.

Would love to see the Tories debate that one.

I think comps actually work better in leafy areas.
I've taught in comp schools where the top set contain children unlikely to pass GCSE or oerhaos scrape a C.
It makes the few who are aiming for As and Bs marginalised.

Private school is inherently selective. Only the wealthy parents can send their children to them. their children are by virtue of coming from wealthy families do not face the same obstacles to success that kids from poorer families do.

Jacks I've been to school in Scotland, a comprehensive and a secondary modern. My brother and sister went to the grammar. The 'problems' you say are with the less academically able pupils are also there in grammars. There are still disruptive pupils, there's still within that top 10 or 25% a variation between bright kids and very bright kids, conscientious students and those less so. My brother was no angel at school, my sister was regularly called a 'swot'.

As for 'can't the secondary moderns
also have a high standard of education' yea right - this is tories we're talking about, there won't be the funding or resources or interest in the kids of the 'oiks' why do you think it ended up like that the last time?

Wrong on two counts. Grammar schools can't expel for "being a bit of a problem"
Oh they do! Well they invite students to leave far before they are too much of a problem, and most parents would rather remove their child before they are expelled.

Grammar schools can, and do, threaten, and parents will cave. But the same rules on exclusion apply to all state schools.

Bertrand. However, it is a dam sight easier getting rid of a 'troublesome' child from a family who are trying to get their second child in to that grammar !

The parents with the 'modern' educated kids are more interested , moaning about how unfairly their child has been treated by the school.

Many times threatening to go to the papers, threatening the teachers, some of the parents just continuing their contempt for education through their children.

The actions of these parents by using every opportunity to vent their fury at the system , means it becomes very difficult to exclude children .

This is also at a cost to the child who would be better off with a fresh start at another school or PRU.

A considered assessment of May here (by a posh Elton boy....)
www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n06/david-runciman/do-your-homework

HPFA, I noted your headteachers' round table article with interest thank you.

That's funny. I don't know any. I've not seen any pieces in the news by education professionals arguing for further selection either.

Ah - I didn't realise I was the only teacher in the country who is pro-grammar....

Ooh an actual teacher!

Edith can you say a bit more about your views in particular the impact on the majority.

Edith my Sister is the '2nd pro Grammar school teacher in the Village'.

was the only teacher in the country who is pro-grammar....

Do you not wonder why there is so little support for your views among education professionals?

I think comps do not serve the academically as able as well as a selective system. You can acknowledge this and think we'll it's for the greater good of everyone combined. I often feel the more academic "take one for the team".

Woe betide any teacher that went against the collective in public !

Noble do you get an official 'Email' from the Unions every week, telling you what you Opinion is.

Or is it more simply than that just that if it comes from a Tory its wrong, that would save the collective so much time

I suspect if the Tories doubled teachers pay and halved the hours Christine Blower et.al would still be moaning...

At primary level I was very happy for my kids to "take one for the team" because being able to deal with a wide range of people is a prerequisite to happiness.

Secondary is more complex.

Nicely put Headofthehive55. Over the years, I have seen many academically-able pupils in the comprehensive system being horrendously bullied for their intelligence and enthusiasm to learn. After a while these children end up covering up their ability - or worse, go completely 'off the rails'.
And before everyone rushes to say that these were 'rich kids' - they weren't. A few were what might be termed 'middle class', but others qualified for free school meals. They all came from a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds. These kids are the doctors and scientists of the future - we let them fall by the wayside at our peril.

Graphista

Well, I am not aware of grammar schools (that are genuinely selective, other than on religious ground)- there are schools called grammar schools which are actually comprehensives. Maybe that is just the areas I have lived in, where intake is based on catchment area (and if in catchment area for more than one, based on parental choice/having siblings in the school and so on). So your choice is comp or private.

I know the grammar school/secondary modern did exist, but am not aware of them currently existing in Scotland. They didn't exist in the area I went to school in. Happy to be corrected though.

Yes, I am aware children are rarely always angels and there can be some level of disruption in any school. There is a huge difference in the atmosphere and expectations between DCs school and mine though.

if it comes from a Tory its wrong

Funnily enough I've seen Tory teachers, teachers who voted for Brexit, Sam Freedman who was Gove's advisor all saying that this policy is shit. It seems to be a cross-party stinker.

As for a lone/handful of teachers who think this is a good idea, well you can find scientists who don't believe in man-made climate change, doctors who believe in homeopathy, black people who voted for Trump...

Over the years, I have seen many academically-able pupils in the comprehensive system being horrendously bullied for their intelligence and enthusiasm to learn.

That's horrible. What did you do about it?

I was talking to some C grade kids yesterday about some top set kids and they seemed to be impressed at how well they were doing rather than anything else.

'Tory Teacher' thing sounds like an indigenous rare tribe located in the depths of the Amazon jungle !

Edith, As you speak from experience we have to accept your testimony, but....

Do you feel that this wrong you have observed outweighs all the other issues?

I need to hear your views on life for the 80%, not just your worries about the 1%